Moderator: Vympel
Shouldn't they be the highest level of official? I do not like to place them into the same category as the novelization of ANH (written by GL).
Some of the calculations in the Ep2 ICS may have had official derivation, but that doesn't mean they can't be canon. And besides, Lucasfilm says they're canon, so they are. End of story.vakundok wrote:1. The ICSs are (at least partially) based on the official material. How they can be canon?
*shrug*2. What about the older movies? Some scenes are only showed in the previous versions (especially scenes containing death).
I ment the now canon fact that ISDs can carry and launch AT-ATs. There are no other canon resource indicating this (as long as I know) and this makes the rebells on Hoth simply stupid, since they were unprepared for the primary ground vehicles carried by the primary warships of the empire.Vympel wrote:Some of the calculations in the Ep2 ICS may have had official derivation, but that doesn't mean they can't be canon. And besides, Lucasfilm says they're canon, so they are. End of story.vakundok wrote:1. The ICSs are (at least partially) based on the official material. How they can be canon?
So because they didn't have effective means of resisting them, they must've not known that they were standard Imperial weaponry carried on ISDs? Don't be ridiculous.vakundok wrote: I ment the now canon fact that ISDs can carry and launch AT-ATs. There are no other canon resource indicating this (as long as I know) and this makes the rebells on Hoth simply stupid, since they were unprepared for the primary ground vehicles carried by the primary warships of the empire.
Possibilities:Vympel wrote:So because they didn't have effective means of resisting them, they must've not known that they were standard Imperial weaponry carried on ISDs? Don't be ridiculous.
No, it's not illogical or unreal. The Rebels had common sense- their fleet couldn't stand up to an Imperial fleet attack, and keeping capital ships there would've just meant more losses when boom time came- furthermore, Rebel capital ships had more important things to do with their time than guard Echo Base- for example- raid Imperial shipping.vakundok wrote:Possibilities:
1.: They have even access to weapons capable fo taking out an ISD in no time. They have also acces to capital ships and their weaponry, fighter weapons and actually everything, except heavy anti-tank weaponry. THIS is what I call ridiculousness. Problem: Illogical and unreal.
I can't believe someone is seriously making the proposition that to carry AT-ATs on Imperial capital ships is highly irregular, personally. It doesn't fly for the reasons I set out above.2.: The official literature and the ICS are wrong and the ISD does not carry AT-ATs. Problem: The ICS is officially canon. (I say officially because the final authority is GL not LFL.)
Yes, the possibility being that knowing of AT-ATs existence and being able to stop them does not make it 'stupid' not to 'prepare' for them in ways that they could not. You seem to advocate the Rebel Fleet defending Hoth to the inevitable death simply because AT-ATs exist, rather than acting like smart guerillas and knowing when to fight and when to run.3.: They do not know that the most common warship of the empire carries AT-ATs. Problem: Very unlikely. They have access to things kept in far higher secrecy and it requires that no ISD used its AT-ATs prior to Hoth.
4.: They know about the AT-ATs onboard the ISDs, but do not prepare. Problem: They are not stupid.
Do you know other possibilities?
Did they recieve LFL's imprimateur as canon.Ender wrote:Inside the Worlds and VDs are of the same level as ICS. The side box in I68 labels them all as nonfiction.
I'm sure the original versions complement the Special Editions in the movie canon, but Sansweet specifically fingers the SE in his Encyclopedia statement, and GL himself has expounded on how the SE is the "true" movie. For the OT, it is the most true movie canon.vakundok wrote:2. What about the older movies? Some scenes are only showed in the previous versions (especially scenes containing death).
Why? To take a real world example, the black market for arms has a host of weapons you could buy if the price is right, that doesn't mean that you must necessarily be able to get your hands on them, or that these weapons are effective against the weapons of the ruling power. Case in point, Iraq. There is no weapon you could find on the black market capable of killing an Abrams in a stand up fight. None.vakundok wrote:What is illogical and unreal is to suppose that heavy anti-tank weaponry was not available to the rebells on the black market.
About point two: Still, the propostion has been made. If you watch the early sketches for the ISD you will see that while the fighter compliment was designed, large ground vehicles were not.
No one said that the ICS was canon equal with the moviesBesides, it is very problematic to find a way, how the AT-ATs could be deployed (especially in the case of the ISD II).
Side note:
http://web.axelero.hu/antibor/ISDIbay2lined.jpg
Both the docking arm of the corvette and the distance between the engine blocks (the green line) are approximately 10 meters. It suggests that the door in the rear wall is barely 15 metres high while the ICS suggests more than 20 (approximately as high as the whole engine block). Compare this image with the ICS diagram and decide whether the ICS really deserves to be canon.
Regardless, a screenshot from ANH does not override the fact that AT-AT's are carried by Star Destroyers. They are carried on landing barges, and there is no reason to assume that they must be at their full height at all times. We already know that they can deploy their troops by kneeling or by rappel. We KNOW from sources, including Force Commander, that they are in fact stored folded and transported as such.Vympel wrote:They are carried on landing barges, and there is no reason to assume that they must be at their full height at all times. We already know that they can deploy their troops by kneeling or by rappel.
In the real world example no weapons can be bought that are clearly overwhelming to the main destroyer of the US navy. In the SW universe, it can. So, far far more powerfull weapons can be bought and the real world example does not fit.Vympel wrote:Why? To take a real world example, the black market for arms has a host of weapons you could buy if the price is right, that doesn't mean that you must necessarily be able to get your hands on them, or that these weapons are effective against the weapons of the ruling power. Case in point, Iraq. There is no weapon you could find on the black market capable of killing an Abrams in a stand up fight. None.vakundok wrote:What is illogical and unreal is to suppose that heavy anti-tank weaponry was not available to the rebells on the black market.
That is a way. But I think you will agree that it is not a simple way. Besides the AT-AT in the ICS seems to stand!they are in fact stored folded and transported as such.vakundok wrote:Besides, it is very problematic to find a way, how the AT-ATs could be deployed (especially in the case of the ISD II).
That that ISDs carry AT-ATs is (on canon level) stated only in the ICS whitch canonity I question. What you are talking about is stated in the movie. Do you question the canonity of the movie? If not, the situation is far from being similar.Vympel wrote:To use your own reasoning against you, does TPM deserve to be canon, since the R2 unit does not fit into the N-1 fighter?
Please, let me know how the fact that ISDs carry AT-ATs answer to the fact that the rebells were unprepared for them, despite they bought far far more powerfull weapons that could take out AT-ATs.Vympel wrote:In case you missed the first post- there are levels of canon, and all answer to the movies.
You're missing the point of Echo Base: it was temporary. Once the Empire found them, the best walker-stopping artillery in the world wouldn't save them from the Imperial Starfleet. That's why the defensive cannons was to STALL the walkers while they evacuated.vakundok wrote:In the real world example no weapons can be bought that are clearly overwhelming to the main destroyer of the US navy. In the SW universe, it can. So, far far more powerfull weapons can be bought and the real world example does not fit.
Perhaps the illustartor of the ICS's ISD messed up the sizing but that doesn't change the fact that ISDs do carry AT-ATs, and they can kneel to be more compact.That is a way. But I think you will agree that it is not a simple way. Besides the AT-AT in the ICS seems to stand!
SW Insider #68 says the ICSs have "LucasFilm's imprimatur as canon". It's canon, deal with it.That that ISDs carry AT-ATs is (on canon level) stated only in the ICS whitch canonity I question.
I don't have to tell you again that Hoth was a temporary base and for those reasons didn't need those weapons.Please, let me know how the fact that ISDs carry AT-ATs answer to the fact that the rebells were unprepared for them, despite they bought far far more powerfull weapons that could take out AT-ATs.
Plus, the more time you waste taking out walkers, the more time the Imperial fleet has to cut off all availible escape routes.Darth Yoshi wrote:As already pointed out, destroying the AT-ATs does no good for the Rebels. Sure, they've gotten some time, but so what? Vader has more ready to land, unless you seriously think that the Dark Lord wouldn't want the best equipment for finding and capturing Skywalker. Eventually, you're going to lose, so you should just cut your losses and get out while you can.
Thanks. I was confused because it is credited to GL.Lord Poe wrote:BTW, vakundok, George Lucas did NOT write the ANH novelization. Alan Dean Foster did.
They outfitted their base with artillery uncapable of stopping the primary ground vessel stored onboard the most common warship. THIS was a waste. The evacuation had the highest priority, it is true. However the evacuation had to be accelerated because they were unable to stop the AT-ATs. And the evacuation being unproper (accelerated) hurts its priority.Illuminatus Primus wrote:And the Rebels didn't have the cash to go around to outfit their base with heavy, expensive anti-armor weapons which were not a necessity and would likely require more power and not be able to be evacuated with other equipment--in other words, a waste.
I have two reasonings. You will find them nitpicking but they stand:Darth Garden Gnome wrote:SW Insider #68 says the ICSs have "LucasFilm's imprimatur as canon". It's canon, deal with it.
Yeah, they also didn't have a planetary shield that can't be walked under either.vakundok wrote:They outfitted their base with artillery uncapable of stopping the primary ground vessel stored onboard the most common warship. THIS was a waste.
Nope. It was accelerated because the Empire knew they were there. They were already resigned to the fact that they could'nt hold off an Imperial attack. They were never meant to. Do you think they were lazily going about evacuating the base as the ISDs approached because they didn't account for walkers being used?The evacuation had the highest priority, it is true. However the evacuation had to be accelerated because they were unable to stop the AT-ATs.
Your reasoning is flawed in the extreme. Read the canon rules and regs on this site, Saxton's site, and my site. A lower canon source cannot override the movies. THEREFORE you must canon movie proof from ANHI have two reasonings. You will find them nitpicking but they stand:
Reasoning A:
1. At the time of the filming of ANH the AT-AT did not exist. So, the Devastator modell originally neither carried nor was designed to carry them. So unless contradicted by higher level canon the ISDs in the original ANH did not carry AT-ATs. (Despite the ICS shows an AT-AT and the Tantive IV together.)
Slothful generalization. Explain how possessing an ion cannon must necessarily mean that they are capable of purchasing 'heavy anti-tank weapons'. In particular, describe what heavy anti-tank weapons the Rebels could've used against the AT-ATs.vakundok wrote: In the real world example no weapons can be bought that are clearly overwhelming to the main destroyer of the US navy. In the SW universe, it can. So, far far more powerfull weapons can be bought and the real world example does not fit.
You're missing the point. The R2D2 not fitting properly into the N-1 is a mistake at the highest level of canon. Regardless, the ICS came up with a fix for it. The presence of a possible fudge in a canon source does not mean that it's not canon. One thing determines the canonicity of a source: what Lucasfilm says.That that ISDs carry AT-ATs is (on canon level) stated only in the ICS whitch canonity I question. What you are talking about is stated in the movie. Do you question the canonity of the movie? If not, the situation is far from being similar.
*What* more powerful weapons that could take out AT-ATs?! Your entire 'argument' is based on the proposition that if the ICS is canon then the rebels must be stupid for not taking out AT-ATs with weapons you don't even know to exist.Vympel wrote: Please, let me know how the fact that ISDs carry AT-ATs answer to the fact that the rebells were unprepared for them, despite they bought far far more powerfull weapons that could take out AT-ATs.
And what it carried is definatly open to speculation isn't itWild Karrde wrote:If I may point out one of the very first incidents in the TESB radio drama has a rebel convoy carrying vital supplies to the fledgling base getting wiped out in an Imperial ambush.
