Dismayed Americans contemplate Canada

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-20 12:47am

NEW YORK (AP) -- For all they share economically and culturally, Canada and the United States are increasingly at odds on basic social policies -- to the point that at least a few discontented Americans are planning to move north and try their neighbors' way of life.

A husband and wife in Minnesota, a college student in Georgia, a young executive in New York. Though each has distinct motives for packing up, they agree the United States is growing too conservative and believe Canada offers a more inclusive, less selfish society.

"For me, it's a no-brainer," said Mollie Ingebrand, a puppeteer from Minneapolis who plans to go to Vancouver with her lawyer husband and 2-year-old son.

"It's the most amazing opportunity I can imagine. To live in a society where there are different priorities in caring for your fellow citizens."

For decades, even while nurturing close ties with the United States, Canadians have often chosen a different path -- establishing universal health care, maintaining ties with Cuba, imposing tough gun control laws. Two current Canadian initiatives, to decriminalize marijuana and legalize same-sex marriage, have pleased many liberals in the United States and irked conservatives.

New York executive Daniel Hanley, 31, was arranging a move for himself and his partner, Tony, long before the Canadian announcement about same-sex marriage. But the timing delights him; he and Tony now hope to marry in front of their families after they emigrate to British Columbia.

"Canada has an opportunity to define itself as a leader," Hanley said. "In some ways, it's now closer to American ideals than America is."

Though many gay American couples are now marrying in Canada, virtually all return home, hoping court rulings will lead to official recognition of their unions.

Hanley's situation is different because Tony -- a Southeast Asian -- is not a U.S. citizen. The men worried that Tony could be forced to leave the United States after his student visa expires in two years: They were elated when Canada's immigration agency said they could move there as partners.

Hanley, who works for a Fortune 500 company in Manhattan, doesn't know how the move will affect his career.

"It's a challenge, it's scary," he said. "We'll have to drop everything we know here, go up there and figure it out."

Thomas Hodges, a computer systems major at Georgia State University, said his dismay with American politics started him thinking last year about going abroad. He recently wrote an article in a campus journal titled, "Why I Am Moving To Canada."

"I'm thinking about Toronto, though I hear it's cold up there," Hodges, a lifelong Southerner, said in a telephone interview.

Hodges, 21, complained about a "neo-conservative shift" in the United States and praised Canada's approach to health care and education.

"The U.S. educational system is unfair -- you have to live in certain areas to go to good schools," he said.

Rene Mercier, spokesman for Canada's immigration department, said any upsurge in U.S.-to-Canada immigration based on current political developments won't be detectable for a few years, because of the time required to process residency applications.

During the Vietnam War, U.S. emigration to Canada surged as thousands of young men, often accompanied by wives or girlfriends, moved to avoid the draft. But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa -- the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.

Mollie Ingebrand, 34, said she has felt an affinity for Canada for many years, fueled partly by respect for its health care system. Her doubts about the United States go back even further, to a childhood spent with liberal parents in a relatively conservative part of Ohio.

"In school I was always told this is the best country on earth, and everyone else wants to be American, and that never really rang true to me," she said. "As I got older, it occurred to me there were other choices."

Her husband, George, 44, has spent little time in Canada, but said it seems to offer a more relaxed, less competitive way of life. He has no qualms about leaving his law practice and selling the family's upscale home in Minneapolis.

"I don't idealize Canada the way my wife does, but I'm ready for an adventure," he said. "I don't know what I'm going to be facing. That's what I'm reveling in."

The Ingebrands have completed the first batch of paperwork to apply for Canadian residency, hoping their talents and finances compensate for lack of specific job offers. As Minnesotans, they look forward to Vancouver's wet but mild climate: "Green all year, no mosquitos," Mollie said.

At Georgia State, Hodges said some conservative schoolmates have challenged his proposed move to Canada, saying he would be abandoning his homeland.

Conversely, Mollie Ingebrand says some of her friends -- people who share her left- of-center views -- argue that she should stay at home to battle for changes here.

"I've been there and done that," Molly said. "I don't want to stay and fight anymore. I can have that bittersweet love for my country from somewhere else."

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-20 12:47am

oops forgot linky

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/07 ... ndex.html#

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 12:49am

Sounds great. Bleeding hearts can do less damage there than here.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-07-20 12:53am

One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave. In the end, whichever country has the better system will eventually find itself on top. I'm starting to thing that the U.S. is losing ground.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-20 12:54am

Wicked Pilot wrote:One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave. In the end, whichever country has the better system will eventually find itself on top. I'm starting to thing that the U.S. is losing ground.

Think of it as a market of sorts

... I guess

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 12:57am

One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave.

It's too bad that more people don't exercise that option. I hate to say "love it or leave it" to people because it's juvenile, but if you are that unhappy here you should leave.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-20 12:58am

I want to go abroad if neo-conservatives keep gaining power....

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 12:59am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I want to go abroad if neo-conservatives keep gaining power....

The Jewish conservatives, you mean.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-20 12:59am

Durran Korr wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I want to go abroad if neo-conservatives keep gaining power....
The Jewish conservatives, you mean.

Err @_@

I think he's referring to all the neocons in the government and administration

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-07-20 01:00am

Durran Korr wrote:I hate to say "love it or leave it" to people because it's juvenile, but if you are that unhappy here you should leave.

I would propose the more enlightened option of trying to effect change before tossing in the towel.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 01:02am

Hamel wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:I want to go abroad if neo-conservatives keep gaining power....
The Jewish conservatives, you mean.
Err @_@

I think he's referring to all the neocons in the government and administration

Generally speaking - there are exceptions, of course - "neoconservative" is longhand for "Jewish conservative." Pat Buchanan loves the word.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-20 01:07am

Durran Korr wrote:
Hamel wrote:
Durran Korr wrote: The Jewish conservatives, you mean.
Err @_@

I think he's referring to all the neocons in the government and administration
Generally speaking - there are exceptions, of course - "neoconservative" is longhand for "Jewish conservative." Pat Buchanan loves the word.

Neocons = former Trotskyites

Pat just hates "joos" ~.~

I think Zionists have a lot of power in american politics, but not to the extent that Pat does

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-20 01:10am

Durran Korr wrote:
Hamel wrote:
Durran Korr wrote: The Jewish conservatives, you mean.
Err @_@

I think he's referring to all the neocons in the government and administration
Generally speaking - there are exceptions, of course - "neoconservative" is longhand for "Jewish conservative." Pat Buchanan loves the word.

... I was refering to the current administration....

And i will fight for change... but if what I try in ineffectual... I will leave...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-20 01:11am

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 01:11am

Neocons = former Trotskyites

LOL, I thought I was the only person who had read that stuff. It shows you just how far out there Patty and his ilk really are.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-20 01:14am

I don't even know what a Trotskyist is but it sounds bad.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 01:17am

Vympel wrote:I don't even know what a Trotskyist is but it sounds bad.

Someone who subscribes to Leon Trotsky's brand of Marxism. You're the last person I would expect to not know this, Vymp.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-20 01:20am

Durran Korr wrote:
Neocons = former Trotskyites
LOL, I thought I was the only person who had read that stuff. It shows you just how far out there Patty and his ilk really are.

I thought the neocons being former trotskyites was a widespread notion among conservatives, Lew Rockwell being one of them

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 01:22am

Hamel wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Neocons = former Trotskyites
LOL, I thought I was the only person who had read that stuff. It shows you just how far out there Patty and his ilk really are.
I thought the neocons being former trotskyites was a widespread notion among conservatives, Lew Rockwell being one of them

Sure, among the paleocons/paleolibertarians. Who certainly do not represent mainstream conservatism in any way, shape, or form.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-20 01:56am

Durran Korr wrote: Someone who subscribes to Leon Trotsky's brand of Marxism. You're the last person I would expect to not know this, Vymp.

Yeah, I knew who Trotsky was (of course) but I didn't know that he had his own view of Marxism that was well known enough that you could follow it

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-20 02:16am

Vympel wrote:
Yeah, I knew who Trotsky was (of course) but I didn't know that he had his own view of Marxism that was well known enough that you could follow it

The list would be shorter if we named the communist figureheads who didn't have there own versions.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-07-20 02:17am

Wicked Pilot wrote:One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave. In the end, whichever country has the better system will eventually find itself on top. I'm starting to thing that the U.S. is losing ground.

Of course. This country's greatest strength has been all the diverse cultures mixing, relating, learning from each other's strengths and shoring each other's weaknesses. If you kill this goose, then the golden eggs just stop flowing. If you set up a system in this country that's intolerant to immigrants/outsiders, then you're setting yourself up for trouble. That's the problem I see with conservatives. They want the past, without paying heed to the future. The future's where we're headed, folks, not the past!

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-20 02:18am

i think marx is the only person who didnt alter his version of marxism. LOL

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-07-20 02:22am

kojikun wrote:i think marx is the only person who didnt alter his version of marxism. LOL

No, the version he extolled to the world definitely wasn't the one he first came up with.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-20 03:11am

Vorlon1701 wrote:No, the version he extolled to the world definitely wasn't the one he first came up with.

well, that settles it, noones left marxism alone.