[HOMOSEXUALITY] Need information on a specific point ...

[Bob McDob]

... and I don't feel like digging through the interweb to find it at the moment.

I have heard (unfortunately I don't know of any cases personally) of people who practised a homosexual lifestyle, turned to Christ, and are (pleasantly) surprised to (months maybe years) later find themselves attracted to members of the opposite sex. I don't mean to say that the transition happens in an instant, but it shows that it can happen.

What have you got on that?

[Darth Wong]

... and I don't feel like digging through the interweb to find it at the moment.

I have heard (unfortunately I don't know of any cases personally) of people who practised a homosexual lifestyle, turned to Christ, and are (pleasantly) surprised to (months maybe years) later find themselves attracted to members of the opposite sex. I don't mean to say that the transition happens in an instant, but it shows that it can happen.

What have you got on that?

It's bullshit. These people undergo indoctrination designed to give them powerful feelings of guilt and shame over being homosexual, and they eventually force themselves to act heterosexual. They might even try to convince themselves that they are genuinely heterosexual.

I wish I could remember the name of the first poster boy of the sexual orientation "conversion" movement. They were so proud of him ... until he reverted to homosexuality. Then his name disappeared off the Internet.

[jegs2]

Ex-Gay Watch
PFOX
Ex-Gay ministries

Some of those sites contain testimonials. I know that my church, Calvary Chapel has various churches in the US with recovering homosexual groups. The one in Ft. Lauderdale does.

[Frank Hipper]

Take it from someone who knows from experience, sexuality is NOT equipped with a button you can switch to the desired orientation.

These "converted" gays are either outright lying, bisexual, or impotent with women. You may be able to choose to not pursue sex, but you CANNOT choose which sex you pursue.

Unless, of course, you're bisexual.

[Darth Wong]

Ex-Gay Watch
PFOX
Ex-Gay ministries

Some of those sites contain testimonials.

So does the typical Amway sales brochure.

I know that my church, Calvary Chapel has various churches in the US with recovering homosexual groups. The one in Ft. Lauderdale does.

I'm sure they do. They treat it as a disease, surround the "sufferer" with enormous volumes of positive/negative reinforcement to alter his behaviour, and then try to convince him that his behavioural change is due to Christ rather than the more direct and obvious explanation of the immense effort in conjunction with the indoctrination.

Compiled data on long-term reversion rates would be much more interesting information than testimonials.

[kojikun]

Unless, of course, you're bisexual.

not even then. i have a friend whos bisexual and is torn between being emotionally attracted to guys but sexually attracted to girls. Hes like worf on his "torn between two cultures" shit, only more sensical.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Ex-Gay Watch
PFOX
Ex-Gay ministries

Some of those sites contain testimonials. I know that my church, Calvary Chapel has various churches in the US with recovering homosexual groups. The one in Ft. Lauderdale does.

Jegs, I have a lot of respect for you--and I also know you're in intelligence. Think about this for a moment. You surround someone with enough emotional pressure, especially from people they know, and enough societal condemnation? They'll crack. Homosexuals, you know, have some of the highest suicide rates--and it isn't because we're mentally ill deviants or something. It's because society is still heavily against us. Now, use that pressure in combination with some simple good cop/bad cop regime from a Church?

It's really quite easy. I imagine the KGB used the same thing to break low-level couriers in spy rings back in the days when Soviet society still believed communism worked. It's tough handling being somebody whom the whole of your society seems to oppose--very tough.

[jinx]

I keep telling them, "shit like this is why everyone hates us." but do they listen? No! No one listens to the jinx.

I'm gonna start my own damn church.

[haas mark]

... and I don't feel like digging through the interweb to find it at the moment.

I have heard (unfortunately I don't know of any cases personally) of people who practised a homosexual lifestyle, turned to Christ, and are (pleasantly) surprised to (months maybe years) later find themselves attracted to members of the opposite sex. I don't mean to say that the transition happens in an instant, but it shows that it can happen.

What have you got on that?

They still have tendencies towards homosexuality (duh) but are socially repressed and have an ultimatum: rescind your previous actions and believe in Christ and all that is hetero, or get the hell out and be excommunicated.

~ver

[Baron Scarpia]

I wish I could remember the name of the first poster boy of the sexual orientation "conversion" movement. They were so proud of him ... until he reverted to homosexuality. Then his name disappeared off the Internet.

John Paulk. He and his wife were both "ex-gays." They splashed their faces across the country in full-page newspaper ads for how the "truth" can let people change.

Lo and behold, Paulik was caught in a Baltimore gay bar (one I've been to a few times, actually) by some of those who fight the ex-gay movement. He made a lame excuse that he had just stopped in to use the bathroom. Gee, John, then why did you have that drink in your hand, and why were you hitting on guys?

It was a huge embarrassment to the "Ex-gay" movement, and sent them running with their tail between their legs. Paulk confirmed in interviews even before this incident what psychologists and other experts said all along--his sexual attraction for men never went away, he just suppressed it and forced himself to be heterosexual in action.

Exodus and other groups never publish their "success" numbers. That's because they are all dismal failures. The AMA and APA both roundly condemn sexual conversion therapy as being mentally destructive to the patient. Any gay like myself who was in the closet for a while can testify to this pretty easily.

Oh, and the two men who founded Exodus eventually fell in love with each other and left the group, denouncing it for the fraud that it is. They are still together, as I recall.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Thank you Baron.

I am pretty sure it is clear to most rtional minds that homosexuality is an inborn quality. From the reseach I have done on the subject, probably completely or at least mostly genetic in nature.
One can of course choose whether or not to act on their biologically determined sexul orientation, but does that change the fact that they think that guy walking down the street is the sexiest thing since... I cant really think of a male sex object from the 50s right now... No it doesnt.

If they do choose that path, they are living a lie. they are being dishonest to themselves, their heterosexual 'lover' their children... And generally the stress is not delt with very well.

[Baron Scarpia]

Homosexuality certainly is biological in nature. There's no other rational explanation for why homosexual behavior is observed in every mammalian land species (and in dophins as well), and permeates every human society.

However, that does not mean it is necessarily genetic. While studies of gay twins indicate there is a genetic component, other research has cast doubt on it being purely a genetic matter. That doesn't mean it isn't biological, however, since other natural means can influence it (such as hormones).

[Master of Ossus]

However, that does not mean it is necessarily genetic. While studies of gay twins indicate there is a genetic component, other research has cast doubt on it being purely a genetic matter. That doesn't mean it isn't biological, however, since other natural means can influence it (such as hormones).

What hormones a person produces, and in what quantity, are determined by their genetic make up. I fail to see a distinction, unless you are saying that there are environmental considerations that affect homosexuality.

[Baron Scarpia]

What hormones a person produces, and in what quantity, are determined by their genetic make up. I fail to see a distinction, unless you are saying that there are environmental considerations that affect homosexuality.

Recently, a biologist showed how there were distinct rises in the homosexual population of Germany after each of the world wars. The evidence allowed him the theorize that stressful conditions on the mother during pregnancy led to a release of hormones that otherwise would not have been present, and these hormones could be the determining factor of homosexuality. This would make sense from an evolutionary standpoint, as such a characteristic would A) lead to a stabilizing of population in times of scarcity and B) be advantageous in producing members of a society that do not breed and rear children, but rather have time to specialize in other tasks.

It is a hypothesis, yes, but one of several possible non-genetic explanations for the natural occurence of homosexual tendencies.

[Sam Or I]

It is a behavior, why can't that change like any other behavior? I am really asking here, because I do not understand. Yes it is hard to change peoples behavior, but I believe it is entirely possible to change sexual behavior as well. (Both straight to gay, and gay to straight).

[Alyrium Denryle]

It is mre complex than that. A behavior you can change yes. But being gay really isnt about the sex acts... It is about who you want to commit those sex acts with, and sexual attaction is biologically determined.

[Sam Or I]

It is mre complex than that. A behavior you can change yes. But being gay really isnt about the sex acts... It is about who you want to commit those sex acts with, and sexual attaction is biologically determined.

I am not disagreeing, but trying to understand completely, and I am sure I will get a backlash for this comparison, but here it goes anyways. Biologically we also fear snakes, and spiders, yet some have over come there fear and keep them as pets and actually learn to like them. Who knows, I will never completely understand. I have never thought of being with a same sex partner, and I do not find it arrousing in the least, but under right conditions and letting go of everything I know, I could see how I possible could "change" so to speak. Maybe I am bi and don't know it, and thats why I am confused about not being able to change. Who knows, maybe all the people who advocate homosexuality is a choice are bi deep down inside and for them it is. I don't know, I am just trying to understand with an open mind.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Just like anything genetic, a fear of snakes must be inherited. So far as I can tell, a fear of snakes is not an autosome, so it would be present to a greater or lesser degree in certain individuals. I am not even really sure it is genetic. That is something that I would think is probably learned, as children when they are young, are very inquisitive. If I show a 5 year old a ball pythoon, they will pet the snake, want to hold the snake, etc... but If I show a python to that same person 10 years later, depending on where I am in the country, they will be nervous, and afraid of thatsame harmless python. SO that isnt something that is genetic. It is a learned behavior, probably due to either subtle repition, or pavloviian conditioning depending on the individual.

Homosexuality on the other hand is not learned. I was taught by my father to hate homosexuals, now look at me. I hit puberty and BAM homosexual. I would watch lesbian porn... nothing... Watch straight porn and I am thinking to myself at 13"OOh that guy is hot"

Such could not possibly have been learned. It would have had to be determined by biological factors. Such as genetics, prenatal hormone exposure, or a combination of the two. You can very well choose to act homo or heterosexual, but will that change who you are actually attracted to? No.

[Johonebesus]

There is a difference between behavior and desire. Let me give you an example. I do not like liver. Now, if I must, I can eat liver. If I had nothing else to subsist on, I would probably grow accustomed to eating it. My behavior can change. The fact that I do not like liver would not change. In the same way, I could make myself go after women. There was one girl a few years ago who was interested in me; if I had tried, I probably could have married her. At the time I could probably even have had sex with her. That does not mean that my desires would change.

That is one of the tricks of the ex-gay groups. They do not distinguish between behavior and desire. To them, homosexuality is living a stereotypical promiscuous lifestyle. Very often, when you ask the converts, they will tell you that they still feel homosexual desires, but they do not act on them. They define homosexuality by a certain behavior, so if a person is celibate, he is not homosexual.

There was recently one study of these groups. A psychologist asked the ministries to send him lists of contacts, giving them every opportunity to pick only their best cases. Of the individuals he then contacted, the majority did not return his survey. We would assume that real successes would be quick to answer his questions and show that their religion worked. Of those that responded, he determined something like 5% experienced a real permanent change. Of course, he did not have the opportunity to interview them all personally, so it is impossible to be sure that none of the "successes" were lying or bisexual, and he only got a few hundred replies, making the results statistically meaningless.

Also keep in mind that, for the male at least, sex is to a large degree mechanical and automatic. An eighteen year old boy could stick it in anything that was not painfully uncomfortable. Only opportunity and personal shame will inhibit his sexual behavior. The average teenage boy, if honest with himself, will have to admit that he could sleep with a man if he chose, and so he might think that homosexuality is a choice. What he has to ask himself is if he would really want to sleep with men. That is the difference. Once he gets past his sexual prime and his hormones calm down a bit so that arousal is not automatic, then he will understand how important desire can be.

[Sam Or I]

Liver is an aquired taste, like many foods.

I guess I will never understand, and I will keep it at that.

[Bob McDob]

Thanks for your input, it's been very helpful. I have questions about another related matter now.

-- Not that hard to theorize at all, actually: Studies have shown that there is a high correlation between certain types of upbringing and the likelihood that a person will turn out gay. Specifically, an upbringing where the father is either absent, or (if he is present in the family at all) is cold, distant, and unloving toward the child, and the mother is overly controlling and protective towards the child. This is mainly in the case of males, but it may also hold for the female children of such a household as well.

I've heard a lot about this ... now, what study was this, and in your opinion is it a reliable one?

[Frank Hipper]

Thanks for your input, it's been very helpful. I have questions about another related matter now.

-- Not that hard to theorize at all, actually: Studies have shown that there is a high correlation between certain types of upbringing and the likelihood that a person will turn out gay. Specifically, an upbringing where the father is either absent, or (if he is present in the family at all) is cold, distant, and unloving toward the child, and the mother is overly controlling and protective towards the child. This is mainly in the case of males, but it may also hold for the female children of such a household as well.

I've heard a lot about this ... now, what study was this, and in your opinion is it a reliable one?

Studies can be tweaked to prove any number of presupposed ideas.

Was this "study" conducted with adherance to the scientific method?

My father was, and is, neither distant or unloving. Yet two out of three kids are gay. Based on my personal experienences, their "study" is worthless.

[Johonebesus]

Liver is an acquired taste, like many foods.

Liver can be an acquired taste. Many people do not really have to acquire a taste for liver; they like it the first time they try it. I have had many years and ample opportunity to acquire that taste. I have failed. I will go (and have gone) hungry rather than ingest the stuff. It's nasty. Of course, it doesn't make me vomit like asparagus (oh the irony), but it's a close contender. For some people, there are just some foods they will never like, no matter what. For me, liver is one.

I've heard a lot about this ... now, what study was this, and in your opinion is it a reliable one?

I have never seen such a study. I have seen several variations of a list of "contributing factors." The distant father and overbearing mother are the two top factors, and others include a distant mother, early sexual experimentation, first sexual contact being with another male, generally secular upbringing, interest in goth or punk or other alternative lifestyles, drug experimentation, a bad first encounter with a girl, being mocked by girls when young, interest in the occult, and several other very general and common factors. The authors will often admit that many heterosexuals have lots of those factors, and many homosexuals have none of those factors, but the factors are valid none-the-less. In other words, even though the theory is utterly useless for predicting an outcome, and the authors admit this, they insist that the theory is true. They simply don't understand logic or science.

Fundamentalists will distort and even fabricate research to support their claims. In this case, I think the main source is just old-fashioned psychobabble theory. Freud and his type were more like Greek philosophers than physical scientists; they did a bit of observation, then concocted elaborate theories to explain what they saw in such a way that seemed reasonable to them, but was not based on rigorous research and never really tested.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Thanks for your input, it's been very helpful. I have questions about another related matter now.

-- Not that hard to theorize at all, actually: Studies have shown that there is a high correlation between certain types of upbringing and the likelihood that a person will turn out gay. Specifically, an upbringing where the father is either absent, or (if he is present in the family at all) is cold, distant, and unloving toward the child, and the mother is overly controlling and protective towards the child. This is mainly in the case of males, but it may also hold for the female children of such a household as well.

I've heard a lot about this ... now, what study was this, and in your opinion is it a reliable one?

That 'study'is utter bullshit. MANY families have controlling mothers and distant fathers. Such things are common to many families accross the world, and can be used to support everything from stupidity, to the cause of a person becoming a serial killer.

[Bob McDob]

One last part ...

-- On that point, you ain't successfully pointed out or exhibited squat. I'd be interested in seeing you try, though. The fact is, if you do a survey of all the great world Empires of the past (those from which we have sufficient information extant, that is), you'll see that more often than not, their downfall came as a result of corruption from within, rather than a superior enemy from without. And said corruption could be traced back, in large part, to the breakdown of the family unit and the resulting breakdown of morality of that culture.