Palleon, time for a reevaluation?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-08-12 02:45am

Does anyone think that the new material in the NJO books has vindicated Thrawn's choice of Palleon as his protege?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-08-12 02:50am

I for one thought he was the man in Force Heretic I, even if he did lose Bastion.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-08-12 06:30am

I've always been behind the guy
After all if Thrawn picked him, he must have something diffrent or slightly better about him than normal

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-08-12 07:01am

Well, he's one of few practically-minded senior officers, I think Thrawn chose him with this in mind. If Thrawn was alive in the NJO, he would have seen that remaining isolated, stubborn and beligerant was stupid, and thrown his forces in with the NR/GA.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2003-08-12 08:36am

Pellaeon isn't the most brillaint tactical mind around. However, he is just about the only Imperial loyalist who's gone up against the NR and survived, repeatedly. Moreover, although he isn't brilliant, he's also has an immense store of common sense.

Which is rather rare, and quite useful. I'd rather have a competent commander who uses his head than an erratic, but brilliant one. Sooner or later, the erratic one gets unlucky.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-08-12 09:05am

Given his foreknowlegde since DarkTide, Pellaeon should have done better in FH.

And can anybody tell me, what happened to the 200 ISDs from HoT in the NJO?

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-08-12 09:25am

FTeik wrote:Given his foreknowlegde since DarkTide, Pellaeon should have done better in FH.

What I gathered from FH was he tried his best to prepare the IR but apathy on the Mofs part hindered him from doing what needed to be done.

And can anybody tell me, what happened to the 200 ISDs from HoT in the NJO?

That's what really pissed me off about that book. The fucking Imperial capital world had only three ISDs and some frigates to defend it!?!?!

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-08-12 01:10pm

Wild Karrde wrote: That's what really pissed me off about that book. The fucking Imperial capital world had only three ISDs and some frigates to defend it!?!?!

Maybe the other ships were used to protect the other IR worlds and Bastion had to rely on fixed defenses like mines, defense stations and ground based weapons?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-12 01:48pm

FTeik wrote:Given his foreknowlegde since DarkTide, Pellaeon should have done better in FH.

And can anybody tell me, what happened to the 200 ISDs from HoT in the NJO?

It looks like they were spread thinly around the Remnant in an attempt to protect everywhere and nowhere at once.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-08-12 01:52pm

Agent R wrote:
Wild Karrde wrote: That's what really pissed me off about that book. The fucking Imperial capital world had only three ISDs and some frigates to defend it!?!?!
Maybe the other ships were used to protect the other IR worlds and Bastion had to rely on fixed defenses like mines, defense stations and ground based weapons?

Even if that was true the entire thing still stinks of EU minimalism.

I mean Bastion is the IR's equivalent to Coruscant, it should have it's own sector fleet of ISDs or similar defending it, the very least Bastion should have been able to call upon reinforcements from big cap ships at a moments notice.

Also as FTeik brought up, where were the 200 ISD that the Remnant had in HoT? Surely the IR had time to build more by the time Bastion was attacked. Not to mention IIRC those 200 ISDs from Hot had cloaking devices standard, surely that would have helped to atleast suprise the Vong with something they hadn't encountered before.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-08-12 01:53pm

phongn wrote:
FTeik wrote:Given his foreknowlegde since DarkTide, Pellaeon should have done better in FH.

And can anybody tell me, what happened to the 200 ISDs from HoT in the NJO?
It looks like they were spread thinly around the Remnant in an attempt to protect everywhere and nowhere at once.

There is a story that the Emperor Napoléon once commanded one of his marshals to draw up a plan to defend France from invasion. The marshal returned with a plan calling for the French armies to be deployed evenly along the border, and the Emperor derisively asked if he intended to protect France from smugglers.

Publius

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-08-12 01:55pm

phongn wrote:
FTeik wrote:Given his foreknowlegde since DarkTide, Pellaeon should have done better in FH.

And can anybody tell me, what happened to the 200 ISDs from HoT in the NJO?
It looks like they were spread thinly around the Remnant in an attempt to protect everywhere and nowhere at once.

I can't remember if this is true or not but didn't the IR have a SSD at it's disposal?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-08-12 01:58pm

I really liked Pellaeon as a character as portrayed by Zahn, have yet to read the NJO books. But it seemed like Thrawn chose his chief underlings for reasons more than fighting ability. Tierce is a good example. While Thrawn might have made him into a brilliant tactician and Tierce was completely loyal, Thrawn kept him as a stormtrooper commander. Because Tierce was no leader. Baron Fel likewise, his flying skills would've been worthless to Thrawn had Fel not had a drive to protect what he loved, and its that love of home which Thrawn used in his clone sleeper cells.

Pellaeon.. sure, he was no great tactician, he always learned and I've never seemed him innovate. Yet between the Thrawn trilogy and Hand of Thrawn duo, you really see that his motives behind his drive were the exact sort that Thrawn cherished. Order, stability, and unity.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-08-12 06:18pm

Since Thrawn selected Pelleon to train, I've always figured that the guy was pretty good, as I trust Thrawn's ability to judge his own personnel, and I've always assumed that Thrawn understood how to pick proteges.

Actually, I've though Gilad was good enough even since the Specter of the Past series. In that one, he clearly showed significant tactical talent, albeit not nearly so great as his former mentor's.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-12 06:40pm

I always thought that Thrawn chose capable proteges but never capable enough that they would be a threat to him. Hence why Palleon is never quite as good as Thrawn.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-08-12 08:04pm

Wild Karrde wrote:
Even if that was true the entire thing still stinks of EU minimalism.

I mean Bastion is the IR's equivalent to Coruscant, it should have it's own sector fleet of ISDs or similar defending it, the very least Bastion should have been able to call upon reinforcements from big cap ships at a moments notice.

Also as FTeik brought up, where were the 200 ISD that the Remnant had in HoT? Surely the IR had time to build more by the time Bastion was attacked. Not to mention IIRC those 200 ISDs from Hot had cloaking devices standard, surely that would have helped to atleast suprise the Vong with something they hadn't encountered before.

There had to be many more than 200 ISD's at the time of the Bastion attack. The entire Moff council would have had to be monuementaly stupid not to begin a re-armment program after the Vong invasion (and subsequent asswhupping of the NR).

Not only that, we know there was a re-armment program. In Destiny's Way there was a SSD at Bastion, something the Remnant hadn't had for years.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-08-12 10:01pm

I'd have to go back and re read the book, but did the Moffs pull a NR Senate and flee with ships as protection? I could be barking up the wrong tree. Not only that. but the Empire did have an SSD. Which is strange that it was not present at ALL in the FH series. It would be nice to see that bastard roll in Enemy Lines style and fucking blaze a trail letting the rest of the fleet pick everything else off. With the Imperial Navy not hindered by blindsighted senators, they could actually man the damn thing and have relevant support for engagements.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-13 01:21am

Publius wrote:
phongn wrote:It looks like they were spread thinly around the Remnant in an attempt to protect everywhere and nowhere at once.
There is a story that the Emperor Napoléon once commanded one of his marshals to draw up a plan to defend France from invasion. The marshal returned with a plan calling for the French armies to be deployed evenly along the border, and the Emperor derisively asked if he intended to protect France from smugglers.

I was indeed alluding to that

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-08-13 12:15pm

Stravo wrote:I always thought that Thrawn chose capable proteges but never capable enough that they would be a threat to him. Hence why Palleon is never quite as good as Thrawn.

I wouldn't quite put it that way. More like he chose competant people, who lack ambition. Since the other quality Thrawn valued as high as competance, was loyalty, and ambition has a way of turning into treason.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-08-13 03:46pm

One thing is for sure Pellaeon didn't have ambition. Bear in mind that Paellaeon was in the Navy from before the Rise of the Empire. He took the ISD Chimera only when the Captain died at Endor. Then he became Thrawns personal Captain after Thrawn found him. He admited to following anyone who would lead in Darksaber. He followed Daala even though she was a proven failure and only became Commander of the Imperial Fleet because there was no-one else. The only times he's advanced is when someone above him dies or he's forced to accept the position.

Lucius Licinius Lucullus · Post by **Lucius Licinius Lucullus** » 2003-08-13 04:01pm

Lord Pounder wrote:One thing is for sure Pellaeon didn't have ambition.
[....snip....] The only times he's advanced is when someone above him dies or he's forced to accept the position.

IMHO that is one of the best, perhaps the, best type of commanders one can have, a commander that is fighting due to duty or loyalty usually performs better then someone that gets distracted by such issues as ego.

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2003-08-13 04:33pm

Cal Wright wrote:I'd have to go back and re read the book, but did the Moffs pull a NR Senate and flee with ships as protection? I could be barking up the wrong tree.

That might explain why there seemed to be so few ships defending Bastion (that or maybe the grutchins that swarmed the IR fleet inflicted an unusually high amount of damage?).

Not only that. but the Empire did have an SSD. Which is strange that it was not present at ALL in the FH series. It would be nice to see that bastard roll in Enemy Lines style and fucking blaze a trail letting the rest of the fleet pick everything else off.

Lusankya's ambush in Enemy Lines was an accident, caused by a premature exit from hyperspace due to either incompetence by her navigator or gravitic disturbances from the YV fleet. Does anybody know where the Imp's SSD went?

FTeik wrote:Given his foreknowlegde since DarkTide, Pellaeon should have done better in FH.

Pellaeon would have done better, were it not for the Moffs. They were complacent and didn't listen to him. According to Pellaeon, only the Chimaera performed in an adequate manner against the YV.

Lucius Licinius Lucullus wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:One thing is for sure Pellaeon didn't have ambition.
[....snip....] The only times he's advanced is when someone above him dies or he's forced to accept the position.
IMHO that is one of the best, perhaps the, best type of commanders one can have, a commander that is fighting due to duty or loyalty usually performs better then someone that gets distracted by such issues as ego.

I agree, ambition and ego get people into loads of trouble they don't really need, which translates into problems Pellaeon doesn't personally have. Nor does he take any crap from politicians, as seen in his meeting with the remaining Moffs at the end of Remnant.

His practicality, open-mindedness, and ability in applying previous knowledge, make him, IMHO at least, a fair successor to Thrawn.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-08-13 10:38pm

Did we or did we not see an SSD in HoT? I thought Han and Lando were privy to one under construction when they infiltrated Bastion.

As for Pallaeon, has anybody else noticed his seeming ability to actually work with others? Imperial commanders prized a kind of glorified aloofness from what we've seen in the movies; Pallaeon actually maintains personal friendships with people like Col. Vermel and Ephin Serretti.

Also - hadn't Bastion been under continuous attack by the time we saw it?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-08-13 11:35pm

Axis Kast wrote:Did we or did we not see an SSD in HoT? I thought Han and Lando were privy to one under construction when they infiltrated Bastion.

AFAIK, that was a standard ISD.

Also - hadn't Bastion been under continuous attack by the time we saw it?

More or less.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2003-08-14 04:05am

Wild Karrde wrote:
Agent R wrote:
Wild Karrde wrote: That's what really pissed me off about that book. The fucking Imperial capital world had only three ISDs and some frigates to defend it!?!?!
Maybe the other ships were used to protect the other IR worlds and Bastion had to rely on fixed defenses like mines, defense stations and ground based weapons?
Even if that was true the entire thing still stinks of EU minimalism.

Its offical. Get over it and take a prozac :p

I mean Bastion is the IR's equivalent to Coruscant, it should have it's own sector fleet of ISDs or similar defending it, the very least Bastion should have been able to call upon reinforcements from big cap ships at a moments notice.

This is NOT the Empire. It is the Imperial Remaint. They have a thousand worlds and only 200 ISD's to protect them. Its the height of idiocy to tie up a large part of that fleet to protect Bastion which already has its own defenses.

That said. in SOTP, it was commented that Bastion has 9 ISD's at its disposal in its sector fleet. So from that we can assume around 22 sectors each with 9 ISD's in them. They were said to have around 1000 support ships in addition to that. So assume they had around 50 support ships.

So Bastion would probably be able to call on its sector fleet of around 9 ISD's and 50 support ships. Which is a decent sized fleet. Recall by the time the Jade Shadow arrived, the IR had been in the fight for a while, beaten off the first wave, been hammered and was on the defensive, on the edge of defeat.

Even so a decent fleet withdrew to arrive at the Yega Minor shipyards.

Also as FTeik brought up, where were the 200 ISD that the Remnant had in HoT? Surely the IR had time to build more by the time Bastion was attacked.

Once again. This is NOT the Empire. This is the Imperial Remaint. They have a single major shipyard which can't keep up with the demand for fighters, let alone capital ships. They lack the resources to build a massive fleet or the money to do so. The IR went into recession when the peace treaty with teh NR was signed. Now that their economy was open to competition from the NR and not protected. They got an SSD from somewhere. They might have even found one of the ones floating around the Galaxy. IIRC the Intimidator after it left the Yevethras service was found crippled and adrift in the outer rim/unknown region boarder area, right where the IR is now. Its possible they grabed it, towed it to a shipyard and restored her.

[/quote]

Not to mention IIRC those 200 ISDs from Hot had cloaking devices standard, surely that would have helped to atleast suprise the Vong with something they hadn't encountered before.[/quote]

No, FOUR of those ISD's had cloaking devices. The three ISD's sent to Bothewi had to have them installed for the mission. And the Chimaera beign Thrawns flagship / Pealleons flagship got one. The rest are def NOT cloaking equiped. Even in Thrawns time it was a VERY expensive thing to do. The IR can hardly afford to mass produce them.