George Lucas on the Clone Trooper/Stormtrooper connection

[Clone Sergeant]

I was reading the latest Ep-3 set diary at the official star wars site and they brought up the issue of storm troopers with various heights and different voices. They ask Lucas and he states that the Empire will eventually begin to use different genetic sources to produce storm troopers that's why they are not all physically identical by the time of the original trilogy.

I really wish I could give you guys a quote or url but the page I'm talking about is behind the "Hyperspace banner". If any of you all subscribe, feel free to read the article to confirm this.

Hopefully, this will finally put to rest the whole Clonetrooper/Stormtrooper debate.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Always good news to hear that GL knows his stuff. The thought that all Imperial troops were clones of Jango was laughable.

As a plus, this puts to rest the "SW Super Special Edition will have stormtroopers with the voice of Jango" myth.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Interesting to say the least.

And good to know that that silly UL is dead.

[Eframepilot]

I found the following at
boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12782942&replies=3 apparently quoted from the set diary:

With the clones being assembled, the fodder of conversation turned to how exactly clone troopers and stormtroopers are related. By now, it's no surprise that the stormtroopers are indeed clones. But the nitpicky fan gripe that the troopers are of different heights and have different voices has not been lost on George Lucas. My cynical side points out that the only thing this descrepancy conclusively proves about the origins of the stormtroopers... is that these films were shot in the 70s.

"Well, they start to turn to different sources when they need it, that's why you get the differences," offers George as an explanation. "We get a model that isn't the Jango version, that doesn't bump his head on doors. But then we get versions that can't shoot straight," he laughs. "I can see the corruption in the Empire: someone says to the Emperor, my cousin would like to fight in the wars, but he doesn't want to do any of the actual fighting. Can you clone him? Well, can he shoot? Ah, yeah. Sure he can."

This would seem to end any objections to the Stormtroopers=Clones theory based solely on canon observations. The question remaining is, Are there any stormtroopers that are not clones, i.e., Is the EU flat out wrong in several places? I suspect the answer for many here will be "The EU is canon, Lucas must be wrong." I prefer to reject the parts of the EU showing non-clone stormies. For instance, take the final scene of Dark Force Rising. Why would Luke and Han be so shocked to see cloned units if the majority of stormtroopers were clones? But this is a personal belief and I wouldn't try to use it in debate.

[SPOOFE]

I prefer to reject the parts of the EU showing non-clone stormies. For instance, take the final scene of Dark Force Rising. Why would Luke and Han be so shocked to see cloned units if the majority of stormtroopers were clones?

Possible explanations:

-They were more obviously clones... grown at a greater rate and shielded from the Force using ysalimiri, which alters their "Force imprint", than movie-era clones. Remember, the fact that they were clones wasn't what was shocking... the fact that the clones could be grown so quickly was the important part of the story.

-The Empire stopped cloning, for some reason, after the death of the Emperor, and as such the remaining Imperial forces had to primarily utilize "real" people to fill the ranks. Further, perhaps Luke wasn't powerful enough, as of ROTJ, to feel the difference between a clone and a regular person, but had become that powerful as of DFR.

[Tychu]

ah the end of the stormtrooper/clonetrooper debate.

Luke and Han may have not known at all that the stormtroopers were clones. the whole galaxy might have been fooled into thinking that they were all individual people. I dont think the Emperor or the Imperial inner council would want to leak the information that their soldiers were clones. It may cause distrust within Imperial ranks or if Rouge and Rebel forces got word of these clones than the cloning tanks would be major targets in taking down the Empire.

As for the question as to why the Empire stoped cloning after the death of the Emperor which it is stated in the Zahn trilogy that the Emperor was really the only one that new of the secrete supply cashe and cloning facility on the planet (in DFR and Cobbaths headquaters, cant think of the name). And Rouge Sqadron for N64 also tells us that the reason that the Tie-d was made was because there was a lack of military to fill Tie Fighters. Even though this game came out before the prequals and the Clonetrooper debate we can assume that quite a few cloning facilities were destroyed after the emperors death as well as people not signing up to join the Imperial military or signing up to be cloned

[Eframepilot]

I prefer to reject the parts of the EU showing non-clone stormies. For instance, take the final scene of Dark Force Rising. Why would Luke and Han be so shocked to see cloned units if the majority of stormtroopers were clones?

Possible explanations:

-They were more obviously clones... grown at a greater rate and shielded from the Force using ysalimiri, which alters their "Force imprint", than movie-era clones. Remember, the fact that they were clones wasn't what was shocking... the fact that the clones could be grown so quickly was the important part of the story.

Luke and Han had no idea how quickly the clones were being grown at this point; the accelerated growth rate wasn't revealed until mid-book 3. The Force weirdness was new to Luke and associated with their being clones, implying that he had never fully sensed clones of the same person in the same place before.

-The Empire stopped cloning, for some reason, after the death of the Emperor, and as such the remaining Imperial forces had to primarily utilize "real" people to fill the ranks. Further, perhaps Luke wasn't powerful enough, as of ROTJ, to feel the difference between a clone and a regular person, but had become that powerful as of DFR.

Luke and Han should have known that the Empire did once use clones for its stormtroopers from their experiences as Rebels. If cloning had previously been widely used but became unavailable to the Empire, Luke and Han's reaction to the clones in DFR should have been, "That's funny, we thought there weren't many, or any, old clonetroopers left in the ranks. Looks like Thrawn was saving a couple," instead of worry that Thrawn had gained access to a new source of cloning. Also the connotation of their reactions is that the Empire has not used clones at all before (at least IMHO). One could theorize that all of the clones had been wiped out in some catastrophe, but this becomes less and less plausible (why didn't Luke and Han think the clones were some fluke survivors, or at least consider the possibility?) I don't believe there is a fully logical explanation for their reaction if clones were really in widespread usage up through ANH times, but we could just write it off as some irrational but accurate premonition on their parts.

[SPOOFE]

Luke and Han had no idea how quickly the clones were being grown at this point; the accelerated growth rate wasn't revealed until mid-book 3. The Force weirdness was new to Luke and associated with their being clones, implying that he had never fully sensed clones of the same person in the same place before.

Their lack of knowledge has nothing to do with my point. I'm saying that, perhaps, there is a difference in how rapidly-grown-under-ysalimiri clones are "felt" through the Force as compared to regular, grown-in-ten-years clones. We have no details on exactly how stormtrooper-clones were made. What we DO know is that there is a significant difference between the AOTC clones and Timothy Zahn's clones.

Luke and Han should have known that the Empire did once use clones for its stormtroopers from their experiences as Rebels.

Why? Lucas has already pointed out that there were various "flavors" of clones. It's obvious that there's a diverse enough selection of clone material to dissuade anyone to the possible notion that stormies are clonies. Hell, after the genetic selection of the Clone wars, there might be THOUSANDS of different types of clones, each with a production run of a few billion, scattered throughout the galaxy.

Again, you need to establish that the Zahn clones were EXACTLY THE SAME as the movie-era clonies in order to make a contradiction.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Their lack of knowledge has nothing to do with my point. I'm saying that, perhaps, there is a difference in how rapidly-grown-under-ysalimiri clones are "felt" through the Force as compared to regular, grown-in-ten-years clones. We have no details on exactly how stormtrooper-clones were made. What we DO know is that there is a significant difference between the AOTC clones and Timothy Zahn's clones.

Funny you should say that. Timothy Zahn has been writing a short story for SWI that talks has a Clone Wars era Republic agent (actually double-agent, but whatever) trying to get his hands on Spaarti cloning technology. Whether or not he succeeds has yet to be revealed but will in the final installment coming soon. So even if they aren't directly related, the Empire has had knowledge of them for 40 years or so.

But given that they were a rarity and stored in one of the Emperor's safe houses on a remote planet in the Outer Rim, I'd chance to guess that such a technology was not in wide-spread use.

[Eframepilot]

Their lack of knowledge has nothing to do with my point. I'm saying that, perhaps, there is a difference in how rapidly-grown-under-ysalimiri clones are "felt" through the Force as compared to regular, grown-in-ten-years clones. We have no details on exactly how stormtrooper-clones were made. What we DO know is that there is a significant difference between the AOTC clones and Timothy Zahn's clones.

There is indeed a difference, but Luke and Han should be unaware when they are looking at the dead clones' bodies. If Luke and Han knew that stormtroopers were clones, their reaction should have been something like this:

Luke: They're clones!
Han: So? All stormies are clones.
Luke: Yeah, but these felt different in the Force.
Han: How?
Luke: Well... they felt the same.
Han: Really. Clones felt the same in the Force, huh? Wow.
Luke: I still say something is fishy.

Luke might have noticed something weird but the revelation that the troopers were clones should not have been so surprising.

Why? Lucas has already pointed out that there were various "flavors" of clones. It's obvious that there's a diverse enough selection of clone material to dissuade anyone to the possible notion that stormies are clonies. Hell, after the genetic selection of the Clone wars, there might be THOUSANDS of different types of clones, each with a production run of a few billion, scattered throughout the galaxy.

Again, you need to establish that the Zahn clones were EXACTLY THE SAME as the movie-era clonies in order to make a contradiction.

Luke and Han didn't react to the clones feeling funny in the Force, they reacted to the clones being, well, clones. They had no way of identifying what type of clones they were. They were clearly surprised to see clones at all, and Luke attributed the weirdness in the Force to them being identical, not to being special Spaarti fast-grown clones. You could argue that they were unaware of any Imperial clones, but this is as implausible as no one knowing what a Breen looks like when Kira had stolen Breen suits twice to disguise herself. Why would the Emperor bother to cover up his stormtroopers being clones? Certainly this significant fact should be known by the Rebellion, which included Bail Organa, friend of Obi-Wan Kenobi who knew better than anyone that the Emperor's armies were made up of clones! While no direct contradiction exists, the possible explanations are very far-fetched.

[PainRack]

There was an EU guide before the prequels about how many in the Empire believed that stormtroopers were clones, wasn't there?


Perhaps the stormtroopers weren't really clones, but vat born babies. They took genetic material from a couple of beings, then mix them up and grow them in a vat, using accelerated growth techniques to grow a grown stormtrooper in a few years.

[Peregrin Toker]

Cloning or not, wouldn't creation of soldiers in vitro be way more expensive - and not significantly more efficient - than just brainwashing orphaned children??

[Darth Wong]

George Lucas sounds like he's just joking around with that statement; the bit about how you can clone entire groups of people who can't shoot straight despite supposedly identical training is a bit of a giveaway.

Anyway, even if we accept the fact that many of the stormtroopers are clones does not mean that everyone who wears the white uniform must be a clone. That armour is just a uniform, and some of those guys are obviously just security guards. Did Palpatine anticipate the millions of crewers on the DS and DS2 ten years in advance?

There are also vast disparities in their training; look at the lack of discipline shown by the group which broke and ran after Solo fired a single shot in the DS, compared to the security team which fought its way into the detention centre or the shock troopers who blasted their way into Tantive IV.

[Vympel]

George Lucas sounds like he's just joking around with that statement; the bit about how you can clone entire groups of people who can't shoot straight despite supposedly identical training is a bit of a giveaway.

I'm sure as hell glad that this joke ain't canon- what a stupid statement.

Anyway, even if we accept the fact that many of the stormtroopers are clones does not mean that everyone who wears the white uniform must be a clone. That armour is just a uniform, and some of those guys are obviously just security guards.

There might be something to this idea: consider that not every Stormtrooper is equipped with the fancy helmet: some do in fact have simple eye pieces- says so in the Visual Dictionary, and the stormtroopers who interrogate Obi-Wan when they reach Mos Eisley can be seen to have them (from the side, you can see through one eyepiece and out the other to the background).

Did Palpatine anticipate the millions of crewers on the DS and DS2 ten years in advance?

Well, there was the plans for the Death Star at Geonosis- who knows how long Palpatine was plotting with Dooku to organise the Seperatists?

There are also vast disparities in their training; look at the lack of discipline shown by the group which broke and ran after Solo fired a single shot in the DS compared to the security team which fought its way into the detention centre or the shock troopers who blasted their way into Tantive IV.

The bit where he chased after them screaming and carrying on and ran into something like a company or something? Well, they could've recieved orders to lead them to the larger group, or it could've been they felt they needed reinforcements, but really, it was pretty lame.

[The Dark]

There are also vast disparities in their training; look at the lack of discipline shown by the group which broke and ran after Solo fired a single shot in the DS, compared to the security team which fought its way into the detention centre or the shock troopers who blasted their way into Tantive IV.

This does not necessarily mean they're not clones. Certain clones may be more or less predisposed towards handling stress well, or there may well be a "disparity in training" among clones. It may be much quicker to train "security guard" stormies than "assault troop" stormies.

Note: I don't necessarily believe that. I still think stormtroopers being clones is moronic. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

[Knife]

I was reading the latest Ep-3 set diary at the official star wars site and they brought up the issue of storm troopers with various heights and different voices. They ask Lucas and he states that the Empire will eventually begin to use different genetic sources to produce storm troopers that's why they are not all physically identical by the time of the original trilogy.

I really wish I could give you guys a quote or url but the page I'm talking about is behind the "Hyperspace banner". If any of you all subscribe, feel free to read the article to confirm this.

Hopefully, this will finally put to rest the whole Clonetrooper/Stormtrooper debate.

Meh, thats been my position on this board for the last year. The idea of different donor's give the stormtrooper Corps flexability in its abilities but can assure that the atrabutes that are present are the best in both training and genetic manipulation.

Besides, its nice to give the EU a bitch slap once in a while.

[Alyeska]

Just because the Empire clones Stormtroopers doesn't mean that they don't accept volunteers as well. It is logical to accept volunteers because they require fewer resources, bring new abilities and traits into the mix, and have other possible advantages.

[Knife]

Just because the Empire clones Stormtroopers doesn't mean that they don't accept volunteers as well. It is logical to accept volunteers because they require fewer resources, bring new abilities and traits into the mix, and have other possible advantages.

Thats why you have an Imperial Army. For a totally disposable shock trooper force, Stormtroopers. Accept no subsitute, unless he's cloned.

[Peregrin Toker]

But thing is - aren't clone armies an inherently silly idea?? They are notoriously expensive to create in the first place, and replacing casualties must be really expensive.

Wouldn't it make more sense if orphaned children in The Empire were sent to certain military schools where they were brainwashed into servitude as Stormtroopers??

(Then again, it could be that the Empire only uses clone stormtroopers because The Emperor pities planetary economies dependant on cloning - eg Kamino)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Anyway, even if we accept the fact that many of the stormtroopers are clones does not mean that everyone who wears the white uniform must be a clone. That armour is just a uniform, and some of those guys are obviously just security guards.

Exceptional volunteers and recruits are permitted to join the Stormtroopers according to the Imperial Sourcebook, however, the majority of troopers would continue to be procured in "the usual manner."

Did Palpatine anticipate the millions of crewers on the DS and DS2 ten years in advance?

The GeNodes appear to be cloned from something similar to the Spaarti apparatus in Hero of Cartao and the Thrawn Trilogy. This would make growth periods as little as a single year.

There are also vast disparities in their training; look at the lack of discipline shown by the group which broke and ran after Solo fired a single shot in the DS, compared to the security team which fought its way into the detention centre or the shock troopers who blasted their way into Tantive IV.

There are many lines of GeNodes, and according to Pax Emperica: The Wookie Annhiliation, some mature into upstanding, patriotic soldiers, and some become fat and lazy. They believe they are recruits and normal people. Their personalities are randomized. Add in that at least a minority of the Stormtroopers are exceptional recruits and volunteers, and the quality discrepency is explained.

[vakundok]

But thing is - aren't clone armies an inherently silly idea?? They are notoriously expensive to create in the first place, and replacing casualties must be really expensive.

Wouldn't it make more sense if orphaned children in The Empire were sent to certain military schools where they were brainwashed into servitude as Stormtroopers??

(Then again, it could be that the Empire only uses clone stormtroopers because The Emperor pities planetary economies dependant on cloning - eg Kamino)

Well, I think the kaminoian style clones can get seven years of military training. If you want to give the children the same training you will have to pre-plan seven years, and the costs will be the same for an orphaned child as for the last seven years of a clone. So, the difference in time and costs are not so huge. (If you want to keep nearly the same quality.)
The clone production requires cloning facilities, but the children have to be collected. And while a facility can be swithed on and off when needed, a children collecting system most likely cannot.
The clones are genetically engineered to be more competent and less independent warriors. The children cannot be.
The supply of clones CAN be planned. Can the supply of thirteen years old orphaned children be planned?

[Knife]

But thing is - aren't clone armies an inherently silly idea?? They are notoriously expensive to create in the first place, and replacing casualties must be really expensive.

Maybe slightly expensive, but the stormtroopers are a totally disposable force and one that doesn't have 'lil' susy rottencrotch at home waiting for him nor does the stormtrooper have a pension to look forward too nor does the empire have to worry about a large VA like organization of former or retired stormtroopers.

They are an expensive item, not an expensive trooper. On top of that, this is the empire. They build 17k command cruisers and 120k diameter battle stations.

Wouldn't it make more sense if orphaned children in The Empire were sent to certain military schools where they were brainwashed into servitude as Stormtroopers??

It is possible that orphaned kids are incorperated into stormtroopers and perhaps, depending on the situation, be used as a templet for stormtroopers. Besides, it is possible that orphans are directed into the Imperial Army instead.


[/quote](Then again, it could be that the Empire only uses clone stormtroopers because The Emperor pities planetary economies dependant on cloning - eg Kamino)[/quote]

Possible, but......

[Ender]

We have known since the AOTC novel came out that they need to replentich material from the source every so often. With Jango dead they would need new sources, thus the varying heights from different sources.

As for the DFR quote, keep in mind the scope fo the galaxy. If they have 100,000 source people and make an assload of clones out of them and then rotate the clones through units, most units are going to have very diverse looks to them. Further, in the years of training their faces will achieve superficial differences (scars, laugh lines, whatnot). This will also make them look different, whereas the clones they saw were too junior to achieve those differences.

Finally, most of the time you don't strip the stormtrooper of his helmet and examine him for comparison. It is my belief that the only reason they did compare the stormies in DFR is because Luke said somethign was off, othersie they would have spaced the corpses.

[SPOOFE]

If Luke and Han knew that stormtroopers were clones, their reaction should have been something like this:

That's a pretty big "If", one that, may I point out, we have no evidence for.

Luke might have noticed something weird but the revelation that the troopers were clones should not have been so surprising.

Why? They were obviously surprised that Grand Admiral Thrawn had the ability to grow clones for mass troop production. Ergo, they had reason to believe, prior to discovering the clones, that the Empire lacked that ability.

What's so difficult about that? Why must you play fast-and-loose with the evidence just so you can point out the "controversy"?

Luke and Han didn't react to the clones feeling funny in the Force

Go re-read the book. Earlier, Luke felt a strange vibe from the troopers. The later revelation of them being clones came as a shock, due to this weird vibe.

were clearly surprised to see clones at all, and Luke attributed the weirdness in the Force to them being identical, not to being special Spaarti fast-grown clones.

Learn how to read my posts. Specifically, learn what the word "perhaps" means.

You could argue that they were unaware of any Imperial clones, but this is as implausible...(snip)

Why is it implausible? There is no reason to believe that Luke, Han, or any other character in the films were aware that the stormtroopers were cloned. Indeed, given the body height and voice discrepancies throughout the stormtrooper ranks, I'd find it very implausible for them to realize that they were dealing with clones.

Why would the Emperor bother to cover up his stormtroopers being clones?

To avoid the stigma of the Clone Wars, perhaps? He didn't gain absolute control of the galaxy overnight.

Certainly this significant fact should be known by the Rebellion

Except all evidence suggests otherwise. Feel free to post some that supports your idiotic, baseless claim.

While no direct contradiction exists, the possible explanations are very far-fetched.

It's far-fetched to assume that the main characters, which never exhibited any knowledge of stormtroopers being clones, didn't know that stormtroopers were clones?

[vakundok]

We have known since the AOTC novel came out that they need to replentich material from the source every so often. With Jango dead they would need new sources, thus the varying heights from different sources.

Excuse me, but Jango asked whether they did not have enough material to finish without him and the answer was that they had, but material from the original source allways produces better results. (Most likely a somewhat higher survival ratio for the first (embrio) phase.)

Finally, most of the time you don't strip the stormtrooper of his helmet and examine him for comparison. It is my belief that the only reason they did compare the stormies in DFR is because Luke said somethign was off, othersie they would have spaced the corpses.

Well, at least the ewoks got a few helmet ... But maybe not enough to notice them being clones. (It depends on the number of sources.)