ok class

[Enforcer Talen]

you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?

my current list is

tax churches
cancel religious vouchers
remove god references from government property
improve the economy
improve schools, particularly logic and biology
have a wide known history of modern religions
have a propaganda campaign ridiculing fundamentalism
sell religious tomes that qualify in 18+ stores only (the bible, as per song of soloman)
legalize prostituion and drugs
maintain abortion freedoms and use the material for stem cell research.

the last two arent against religion per se, but I think the benefits will bring over the fence sitters.

any other ideas?

[Zoink]

Answer a yearly test about evolution/history/Occam's Razor correctly and get a $100 check from the gov't!

[Peregrin Toker]

Answer a yearly test about evolution/history/Occam's Razor correctly and get a $100 check from the gov't!

Wouldn't this decision be rather costly if it's as effective as expected?

[haas mark]

Legalize same-sex marriage!

~ver

[Lord Poe]

While I'd eliminate "In God We Trust" from money and other government buildings, I would not eliminate religion and Fundamentalism. We NEED these things. Let's face it: rabid-religious people have no moral center except for what religion teaches them. That's why they can't fathom an atheist having a moral center. So, do you want these wackos with zero morals running around?

[Col. Crackpot]

i agree with Wayne. Religion keeps the idiots in check. if that was suddenly taken away i shudder to think about the consequences. If anything religion must be gradually undermined of a span of centuries, and that is already happening. Before it can be completely elimiated we must get rid of the idiots, and that is a far more daunting task!

[Zoink]

[
Wouldn't this decision be rather costly if it's as effective as expected?

Its just tax people are getting back, something Canada would do. Call it a "Promotion of Science and Reasoning Skills" and maybe direct it at a certain age group.

I haven't really thought it through; I was being more facetious than serious.

[Alex Moon]

you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?

my current list is

tax churches
cancel religious vouchers
remove god references from government property

These you could probably get away with, as long as they were fairly imposed on all religions.

improve the economy

How will you do that? Besides, I doubt that this will have much effect on anything.

improve schools, particularly logic and biology

This one might help, but the catholic church already admits evolution, and they're still around.

have a wide known history of modern religions
have a propaganda campaign ridiculing fundamentalism

These ones I don't think you'll get very far with. An official government-approved history of religion is likely to spark a whole mess of outrage and backlash, and the propaganda campaign will likely be thrown out as unconstitutional.

sell religious tomes that qualify in 18+ stores only (the bible, as per song of soloman)

The discovery channel showed boobies and documentaries about humans having sex. Should it be 18+ too? How about other writings? Trying to ban a book is only going to create a backlash among both the religious and the non-religious and encourage people to join churches. There are plenty of people, even atheists, who admire the bible as a work of literature.

legalize prostituion and drugs
maintain abortion freedoms and use the material for stem cell research.

the last two arent against religion per se, but I think the benefits will bring over the fence sitters.

I doubt it. Abortion is already a heated debate, and I don't see how legalizing prostitution and drugs are going to convert moderates. They're just as likely to drive moderate people who dislike these to religion, where they can find support.

Overall, I don't think it is possible to eliminate religion from a free society. In order to do it, you'd need the kind of control you only find in totalitarianist states.

[Darth Servo]

i agree with Wayne. Religion keeps the idiots in check. if that was suddenly taken away i shudder to think about the consequences. If anything religion must be gradually undermined of a span of centuries, and that is already happening. Before it can be completely elimiated we must get rid of the idiots, and that is a far more daunting task!

No one said it needed to be "suddenly" taken away. A weening stage could be implemented. And the fundies lack moral grounding because they are told from birth to do whatever the bible/their preacher tells them. Some could learn to think for themselves if given the chance.

[Joe]

Legalize prostitution and drug use; grant an unconditional pardon to all nonviolent offenders.

Rewrite the First Amendment to specifically apply to state legislatures, reaffirming the federal government's power to enforce the separation of church and state.

Pass education completely down to the states; accompany with more vigorous enforcement of the separation of church and state.

[Xenophobe3691]

Add mathematics and history to the lists for school.

[NecronLord]

Add mathematics and history to the lists for school.

Err.. What exactly do you mean, surely American schools teach Maths .

I tax religious books. 300%!

[HemlockGrey]

Using the goverment to publicly ridicule religion and attempt to stamp it out would be bordering on illegal, I think.

[Xenophobe3691]

Err.. What exactly do you mean, surely American schools teach Maths .

I tax religious books. 300%!

Don't tax religious books that much, you'll get some riots...

And schools here suck at teaching math and history. That's only why I said it.

[Durandal]

This belongs in N&P.

[HemlockGrey]

You know, government-funded anti-religion propaganda campaigns and taxing religious books just due to their religious nature is essentially persecution.

[Nathan F]

Riiiiiigt...try an eliminate all religion. If that isn't as bigoted a remark as some the fundies make, then I don't know what is.

[Coyote]

Obviously I don't have the problem with religion per se, but Fundamentalism is problematic and at times has proven to be disruptive to domestic tranquility (abortion shootings and bombings, attacks on gays, etc). Somne of the neo-Nazi groups in the US are Fndamentalist Christian organizations ('Christian Identity' movement, 'the Cross, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord', 'Elohim City', etc).

Clearly these groups can be targeted by law enforcement with little public backlash. I'd also orgnize a public awareness campaign that clearly points out that the "In God We Trust" slogan replaced the original "E Pluribus Unim" as a anti-Communist ploy. If conservatives really want to 'get back to the original spirit of America' then having religious slogans on gov't buildings and currency is not part of the plan.

Enforcing the seperation of Church and State, I'd push a bill that would prohibit anyone who is in a government/civil service position from using their position as a means to evangelize or distribute religious material. A gov't employee who evangelizes while performing official duties will be subject to dismissal.

Missionary activity of any sort is intrusive. I'd limit religious orgnizations to mass-mailings (yes, I know, 'junk mail'), announcing who they are and what they believe in. If someone replies and requests more information then missionaries will be sent but otherwise mass-canvassing the streets will no longer be allowed.

Religious organizations will be taxed but that will be a hard sell on the generk populace and many small store-front churches will be hit hard. I'd probably temper it by saying that if religious orgs can demonstrate that they perform charity services that show a clear benefit to the community then they can qualify for tax breaks, perhaps they will also be taxed by size of congegation...

The idea I see is to limit Fundamentalism not eliminate religion as a whole. I know most of you here disdain the idea of religion or even openly hate it, but the desire or belief in otherworldly powers is not something that will go away any time soon, no matter what laws or education there are. The best thing to do is to limit the negative effects and try to channel that energy to community benefit.

[haas mark]

Rid the Pledge of Allegiance.

~ver

[Alyeska]

Rewrite the First Amendment to specifically apply to state legislatures, reaffirming the federal government's power to enforce the separation of church and state.

Pointless. All levels of government are held to the Bill of Rights standard.

[Alyeska]

Rid the Pledge of Allegiance.

~ver

Stupid. The Pledge was not originaly religious in nature. Just revert it to its original form.

[CelesKnight]

you have full control of the u.s. government, and while you cannot violate the bill of rights, you can do pretty much anything else.

so, your goal is to eliminate fundamentalism, and in follow up religion. how do you go about it?

my current list is

tax churches

The first admendment also contains that nefarious "or prohibit the free exercise thereof" bit. This is likely so blatent that it's going to be struck down as unconstitutional. You could, of course, apply it to all non-profit orgs, but I suspect that the downside is going to be greater than the upside.

A second problem with this and other items below is that some organizations do well in a crisis. Think of the change in the level of American patriotism and the public's willingness for war between April 2001 and 2002. Attacking America in order to change its political views only strengthened those views. Think of New Coke. That wasn't even an attack, but there was a huge outcry. The more blatent your attack on religion is, the more that some lapsed Christians who haven't been to church in years are going start supporting the church, and current conservative Christians will be strengthed in their resolve to resist.

cancel religious vouchers
remove god references from government property

Easy enough to do. The first will likely have the effect you want. The second less so, because I doubt that many people really found religions looking at the 10 Commandments momument or other such things. Actually, I think that the second one is going to have at least a short term boost of religion as people protest it.

improve the economy

Or perhaps just "don't f*ck up the economy so bad that people become destitute"

improve schools, particularly logic and biology

Will help against fundementalism. Doubt it will have as great an effect on liberal churches. (It will have some, of course). Further tayloring the ciriculum towards anti-religous beliefs would have an even greater effect, but again you have to be careful of not making your plans obvious.

have a wide known history of modern religions

?

have a propaganda campaign ridiculing fundamentalism
sell religious tomes that qualify in 18+ stores only (the bible, as per song of soloman)

Dangerous. I think that it's of questionable legal standing, and (as above) may help to strengthen the will of the most conservative of Christians.

AFAIK, most fundemental Christians believe
1)we are in/near the end times
2)in the end times, christian religion will be outlawed by the government
3)spiritual resistance to this is vital

The more you make it obvious you're attacking them, the greater their resolve will be.

legalize prostituion and drugs
maintain abortion freedoms and use the material for stem cell research.

the last two arent against religion per se, but I think the benefits will bring over the fence sitters.

...fence sitters on both sites. You're going to polarise the populous. The real problem you're going to run into is that IF this leads to an unstable society, people may turn to religion.

any other ideas?

I have doubts as to the real cost/benefit ratio of this. If you're going to social engineer people, why not do it in favor of say, high productivity, or less crime, or military conquest, or space expansion? But anyway, I think that your biggest mistake is that you're moving too fast. You're blatently moving against people who expect this to happen. And you're doing this in a nation where tradition is of incredible importance, hence a percieved attack on that will likely have the effect of strengthing it (remember New Coke?)

To paraphrase Orson Scott Card in one of the Ender books, "Attack religion and the crusading spirit grows. Ask a person to come to church every week and the crusading spirit curles up and goes to sleep." If you really want to destory religion, don't act so fast. Subvert children without making it obvious you're subverting them (hence less of a backlash). Be patient. Less children will join the religion as they grow up. (This reminds me of Nazi Germany, but oh well).

Provide an alternative for people to believe in--people are going to turn to something when crisii arrise. A New Age religion might work, but remember that the Constituion will stop you from doing to much to support it.

Perhaps simply do nothing. Perhaps conflict is good for the Church. Look at Europe. They have offical state churches (or so I've heard) and no one goes. Americans have yearly brawls over how offical religion can be, and religion is quite popular.

[Stormbringer]

Rewrite the First Amendment to specifically apply to state legislatures, reaffirming the federal government's power to enforce the separation of church and state.

Pointless. All levels of government are held to the Bill of Rights standard.

The points been debated. Why not make it absolutely clear.

[Alyrium Denryle]

First: Apply property and income taxes to churches. mainly because they are not really NPOs... If they do actually qualify as such... that is different.

Remove all mentions of religion from Government

No more school vouchers, and tax private schools(they are corporate after all)

In a display of irony, use the revenue from the new taxes to fund better public schools where kids will be educated in logic and biology... Soon, due to increased performance of public schools private religious schools will go under... Homeschool kids will still be held to the exact same standard as public school kids, and they wil have to take the same tests. Not only that, but their parents must be state certified.


Use the liberal media(tm) to blast religious fundamentalism, Fox news will be replaced by Raven News, the same level of bias, but left wing... Soon, the people of the US will view it as the only reliable source of information.

[HemlockGrey]

Use the liberal media(tm) to blast religious fundamentalism, Fox news will be replaced by Raven News, the same level of bias, but left wing... Soon, the people of the US will view it as the only reliable source of information.