Mandatory military service

[Shrykull]

It's a law in a lot of countries, I know someone who had to do it in Cape Verde growing up. How many of you are just total non-military types and would hate more than anything to do it? I've heard vietnam vets talk about how draftees were the crappiest soldiers because they didn't want to be there and resented it, and didn't do their jobs well, but you have civilizations like the romans who military service was mandatory and it worked pretty well for them and those civ took it nose dive when it went away.

[Hamel]

You're going to hear two sides to the stories about the quality of draftees. Many will say that, if the draftees don't want to be there, they won't perform well when the time comes. Others will either blow it off, or make the claim that the military will instill values and responsibility, etc, in the citizenry so it's worth it.

I call bullshit on that, because any values you pick up from the military can be gained from elsewhere in life.

[ArmorPierce]

I don't think that military service was mandatory for the Romans.

[Sea Skimmer]

Vietnam is a shitty example to discuss because of the massive negative public and media reaction to the war.

Conscripts in general make for quite good solders and is a necessity for a mass army, witness events in 1870 in everyone's favorite European country. However they are inappropriate for a modern military because typical conscription periods, 2 years or less, result in very high training costs and not much work being gotten out of the solider. High rates of turnover are also bad for units of all types and the trend for smaller more powerful forces in the military of every developed nation makes teamwork and forming an esprit de corps more important then ever.

With a mass army the term of active military service really was just to make the solider, once they left they'd generally go into a reserve unit automatically and serve in that for quite some time and all such units would be activated in any war.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Roman military service was one way to get CITIZENSHIP, not something everyone born in the Roman empire had.

I think that putting in 2 years after highschool would be beneficial to kids. Teach them some skills, some discipline, physical fitness, and they get money for college.

There might not be so many burnouts, and this would put them in support positions so that in the event of a conflict the conscripts wouldn't be put into combat situations.

Of course, this is my own idealistic idea.

I also think we should let criminals in prison for nonviolent crimes to work off their sentences in the military on a 3:1 deal, 3 years in prison for one year in the military. Its already like a prison.

[Stuart Mackey]

NZ politicians looked breifly at CMT in the 90's and the millitarys opinion was a resounding 'Fuck off!!!' It was also way too expensive. To have a large conscript army you have to purchace the weapons for them, you also need to build the bases. There is also a tendancy for the regualar army to simply become a training organisation for particualar skill sets over a two year period, and not oriented to their actual mission.
Why train conscripts when you have to let them go at exactly the point when they are good for something?
Conscript armies can be effective in a long conventional war, when there is popular support for it, but it still takes time, genrally two years, to get a competent conscript army that can do the job.

[Xisiqomelir]

Let me share some personal experience.

I was born Singaporean, and all Singaporean males are forced into conscription at the age of 18. I found it depressing and horrifying from the day I was enlisted till the day my term of "service" (smirk) ended. It quite frankly made me sick to my soul to have two and half of the best years of my life so utterly wasted like that.

I'm starting college at UC Davis later this month, at the age of *21*, whereas friends of the same age I had in England have graduated and some even gotten married already. Doing National Slavery (as we lovingly call it) has been putting Singaporeans years behind their neighbours ever since it began.

re: Skills and discipline, I was trained as a medic, which was never a profession which interested me. I could serve competently in any ambulance in the world I suppose, but I doubt I ever will. In any case, those skills were acquired in three months, which still leaves 27 more which were worthless. I, and many others, DID master a variety of work-avoidance and malingering skills, but that's not quite the "proud military tradition" they were hoping to instill I think

re: Loyalty and nation building, I am so overcome with the love of my nation that those 30 months of slavery inspired that I'm seeking to emigrate the instant I graduate so that my sons will be spared what I went through. And many other Singaporeans share that view it seems

[Xisiqomelir]

I think that putting in 2 years after highschool would be beneficial to kids.

Coercion is morally abhorrent.

[Stuart Mackey]

I think that putting in 2 years after highschool would be beneficial to kids.

Coercion is morally abhorrent.

If they tried it in NZ, no one would show up..what are they going to do? arrest 20 000 people?

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
I, and many others, DID master a variety of work-avoidance and malingering skills, but that's not quite the "proud military tradition" they were hoping to instill I think

re: Loyalty and nation building, I am so overcome with the love of my nation that those 30 months of slavery inspired that I'm seeking to emigrate the instant I graduate so that my sons will be spared what I went through. And many other Singaporeans share that view it seems

No offence, but NZ soldiers I have talked to have not been overly impressed with the Asian conscript armies..and know I know why.

[Xisiqomelir]

No offence, but NZ soldiers I have talked to have not been overly impressed with the Asian conscript armies..and know I know why.

Actually the Taiwanese and S. Korean conscripts are pretty good as I understand it.

One assumes this is because conscription actually serves a useful purpose for those countries.

[Stuart Mackey]

No offence, but NZ soldiers I have talked to have not been overly impressed with the Asian conscript armies..and know I know why.

Actually the Taiwanese and S. Korean conscripts are pretty good as I understand it.

One assumes this is because conscription actually serves a useful purpose for those countries.

Depends on how long they are in and what they are trained in. Anyone can be trained how to perform well at drill and coregraphed manouvours, but that does not equate to a army that can cope with combat.

To put it simply two years is simply not enough to build an army that can cope with modern war as the entire structure is oreintated to a two year training cycles not to actual training for combat.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Actually the Taiwanese and S. Korean conscripts are pretty good as I understand it.

One assumes this is because conscription actually serves a useful purpose for those countries.

Depends on the training. When I was serving (TW) the time reduced from 2 years to 1 year 10 months. Today it has already reduced to 1.5 years and yesterday I've heard that there are policies to reduce it even more. Considering attitudes for "being old" in the military that means people get "old" quickly, which is not a good sign in a conscription system.

[HemlockGrey]

Actually the Taiwanese and S. Korean conscripts are pretty good as I understand it.

I would imagine, since they both have, officially, at least, mortal enemies just a hop, skip, and jump away.

Singapore, though...what is the history of Singapore? What necessitates a conscript army?

[Enforcer Talen]

modern war relies more on high tech then high numbers. we dont need as many troops, percentage wise, as we used to to get the job done.

the military can teach you, if your willing to learn. I would be terrified of being supported by someone who hated the corps, the nation, and the mission. friendly fire? apathy? both get me killed.

the system works fine well as it is.

[RogueIce]

It also depends on the size, too, really when you think about it.

For a smaller nation, it might not be so bad, but imagine the costs if everyone 18-24 in the US had to serve!

[Joe]

I think that putting in 2 years after highschool would be beneficial to kids.

Coercion is morally abhorrent.

That's how government works, get used to it (you don't think people pay taxes because they want to, right?).

[Knife]

It's a law in a lot of countries, I know someone who had to do it in Cape Verde growing up. How many of you are just total non-military types and would hate more than anything to do it?

Actually I volunteered. But I see the point in that forcing some to do it is not the best way to go about it.

I've heard vietnam vets talk about how draftees were the crappiest soldiers because they didn't want to be there and resented it, and didn't do their jobs well,

Vietnaum is probably not the best example of a conscript army but the system has worked to one degree or another down through the ages.

but you have civilizations like the romans who military service was mandatory and it worked pretty well for them and those civ took it nose dive when it went away

Actually, Rome had a professional army after the Celts (Brennus IIRC) sacked and burned Rome. They had auxillaries from conquered nations and this could be called conscription but massive rewards were given for these auxillaries. The standard Roman soldier was a volunteer and paid quite well with a healthy retirement after X amount of years.

In general, I believe that modern warfare is against conscription. The modern battlefield is not the war of atrition of past where conscripts prove valuable (or disposeable depending on how you view it). Today, the tech involved in warfare needs educated personel and relies heavily on dedicated NCO's with experience and the want to be there.

Even still, no system is perfect. The US Armed Forces is an all volunteer force and still while I was in, there was many a person bitching about being there. *shrug* I guess these people are the type to bitch about every and anything.

[RogueIce]

I've heard vietnam vets talk about how draftees were the crappiest soldiers because they didn't want to be there and resented it, and didn't do their jobs well,

Vietnaum is probably not the best example of a conscript army but the system has worked to one degree or another down through the ages.

What about World War II? They had a number of draftees too, didn't they?

Granted, Pearl Harbor was an incentive, but I think that would've mostly applied to the Pacific Theater, as opposed to Europe.

And someone who knows: did the Marines take draftees in WWII? I believe they did in Vietnam (that must've gone over well with them... ), but did they do it in WWII as well? Or was there really no need, as volunteers kept on coming in?

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

It also depends on the size, too, really when you think about it.

For a smaller nation, it might not be so bad, but imagine the costs if everyone 18-24 in the US had to serve!

Also in small nations we don't have that much tech in ground forces so a basic quantity is needed to maintain some degree of quality.

I'm quite suprised about Singapore having such high immigrant rate. The rate of TW is very low on that chart. So I think the connection is not that obvious. In TW some people do send their boys to foreign countries but they're mainly those hypocritic politicians and some rich businessmen, and the reasons aren't always because of conscription.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Personaly, I dont think people should ever be forced to fight for their country if they dont want to.

In Switzerland, they train everyone in the use of weapons and the entire military is one giant reserve.... but, this is purely defensive in nature.

Forcing someone to go overseas to fight for a country that they may not want to fight for, I think is bullshit.

[Knife]

I've heard vietnam vets talk about how draftees were the crappiest soldiers because they didn't want to be there and resented it, and didn't do their jobs well,

Vietnaum is probably not the best example of a conscript army but the system has worked to one degree or another down through the ages.

What about World War II? They had a number of draftees too, didn't they?

Granted, Pearl Harbor was an incentive, but I think that would've mostly applied to the Pacific Theater, as opposed to Europe.

And someone who knows: did the Marines take draftees in WWII? I believe they did in Vietnam (that must've gone over well with them... ), but did they do it in WWII as well? Or was there really no need, as volunteers kept on coming in?

I don't think I have really ever heard. I know massive amounts of volunteers jumped into the recruiters office's but as to conscription?????

But conscription in WWI and the Civil War and just about every war beyond that. Basicly, imo and I could be wrong, you can trace it to leevies and hosts in the ancient era. Where armies where farmers and war was fought after and before the harvest. Quite a few civilizations turned to professional arimies but the practice of a small core of trained soldiers complemented with leevies that were just peasents with pitchforks continued for a long time.

[Sea Skimmer]

What about World War II? They had a number of draftees too, didn't they?

The US military was only around half conscripts in the war as I recall and the Marine corps was completely volunteer, as where some parts of the other services such as navy submarines.

Granted, Pearl Harbor was an incentive, but I think that would've mostly applied to the Pacific Theater, as opposed to Europe.

You dont chose your theater when you volunteer, just your service. A conscript doesnt get that choice.

And someone who knows: did the Marines take draftees in WWII? I believe they did in Vietnam (that must've gone over well with them... ), but did they do it in WWII as well? Or was there really no need, as volunteers kept on coming in?

The only time the USMC has used conscripted manpower was during the later stages of Vietnam

[Knife]

The only time the USMC has used conscripted manpower was during the later stages of Vietnam

Even then, they had the pick of the conscripts of other services.

[Rubberanvil]

The US military was only around half conscripts in the war as I recall and the Marine corps was completely volunteer, as where some parts of the other services such as navy submarines.

IIRC only the U.S. Coast Guard was completely volunteer throughout WWII. The U.S. Marines were forced into taking draftees to replace their losses in the Pacific Theater in the latter part of WWII.