The UFP-Cardassia War: an interstellar Pacific War?

[Steve]

Think about it for a minute. Nearly every time prior to DS9 that the UFP and Cardies mix it up, the Cardies are protrayed as the weaker party, technologically. They're obviously made of sterner stuff in terms of their military outlook, but look at the similarities with Imperial Japan....

Both, while having "government" apparatuses, were predominately ruled by their militaries.

Both were highly racist and xenophobic.

Both either killed or enslaved those they conquered. The prisoners of Imperial Japan and of the Cardassian Union have been known to suffer from rape and torture at the hands of their captors. Both Empires forced women in the occupied territories to serve as sex slaves to their officers and troops.

Both, due to a severe lack of resources in their home islands/planets and overpopulation, turned into hegemonistic military-ruled empires to continue fueling their industries.

Both lacked the technological sophistication of their major foes, and partially make up for it with brute power (or attempts in that direction).


There are differences, but these similarities got me into thinking, and more to the point.... why didn't the Federation, despite superior technology, prevail? The excuse of "they didn't have enough ships" is rendered unacceptable by the time frame of the conflict; they had plenty of time to raise military production to meet the demands of the war effort.

We really get back to the UFP's TNG mentality. The TNG-era UFP is run by Chamberlains and Daladiers, politicians who will stop at nothing to keep peace, even false peace, with appeasement. The Federation has apparently forgotten the lessons of Munich. More to the point, at least Chamberlain came to realize appeasement's failure and drew a line at Poland. When faced with evidence of planned Cardassian aggression, the Federation.... swept the evidence under the rug and signed a peace treaty with them that included territorial concessions! Inexcusable! And we all know where that ended; the Dominion War.

The Federation forgot the lesson of Bismarck; that the great decisions of the universe are not made by fancy speeches, by rhetoric, by negotiation; they are made by Blood and Iron. They lost their resolve to face foreign Tyrants, and that brought them close to the defeat against the most horrible Tyrant in the Trek Universe (next to the Borg); the Dominion.

If you were in complete control of the UFP, able to ensure at least average public support for your initatives and policies, how would you react to the Cardassians? And, how far do you, personally, think you could take the Federation in the war effort against Cardassia? Could you hold your colonies and force the Cardassians into concessions? Perhaps liberate Bajor and other alien worlds enslaved by Cardassia, and then use this as leverage to gain a favorable peace with them? (Assuming you can't afford to go all the way?) Or, best of all, would you not stop until Cardassia was your's, and you could dictate peace to them in the fashion of Theodore Roosevelt, and likely the only language they would understand: the hammering of the guns!?

[Iceberg]

On to Cardassia! Fire as she bears, men!

[Mr Bean]

What was that classic quote?

As he pulled into Sector 001(Perl Harbor) he turned to his men and said
By the end of this war the Cardassian lanugage will be spoken only in hell

*Oh and I deleted the other double post poll

[phongn]

Well, if this is Pacific War II, then will we see Starfleet begin massive area bombing of Cardassian colonies?

[Evil Jerk]

I'd take the war all the way to their front doorstep and ram ordinance down their throats until they surrendered.
Nobody has ever gotten anywhere with peace at any cost, and it'd set an example to the other hostile jerks in the neighborhood.

Though I'd have to see about getting some kind of dedicated army if I want to take worlds, Redshirts don't cut it.

[Renewed_Valour1]

The Federation forgot the lesson of Bismarck; that the great decisions of the universe are not made by fancy speeches, by rhetoric, by negotiation; they are made by Blood and Iron .

Bismarck also knew the value of negotiations. His alliance system prior to his removal from the chancellorship and the adoption of the new disastrous Weltpolitik was the thing that prevented a war in Europe. Unless you want to argue that World War I was a good thing for Germany.

Both lacked the technological sophistication of their major foes, and partially make up for it with brute power (or attempts in that direction).

Japan at the start of the war had many "technological" advances over the US. The Zero was arguably superior to the F4F Wildcat except in the area of survivability. The only American carrier plane that I would argue was superior was the SBD. The TBF was an antiquated joke for a torpedo bomber. The Long Lance torpedo was vastly superior to the American torpedoes that often failed to even go off.

What really killed Japan was the industrial might of the US and the damage USN submarines did to their merchant shipping.

[Steve]

Bismarck also knew the value of negotiations. His alliance system prior to his removal from the chancellorship and the adoption of the new disastrous Weltpolitik was the thing that prevented a war in Europe. Unless you want to argue that World War I was a good thing for Germany.

But that was after the great decisions of his day had already been made; Blood and Iron had built the Second Reich, and negotiations, with the knowledge that Blood and Iron would back them up, would sustain it.

The UFP does not comprehend the need to show strength, they find strength in their self-constructed moral high ground, and that is not a good position.

Japan at the start of the war had many "technological" advances over the US. The Zero was arguably superior to the F4F Wildcat except in the area of survivability. The only American carrier plane that I would argue was superior was the SBD. The TBF was an antiquated joke for a torpedo bomber. The Long Lance torpedo was vastly superior to the American torpedoes that often failed to even go off.

What really killed Japan was the industrial might of the US and the damage USN submarines did to their merchant shipping.

Japan also had substandard radar and other electronics. The American war development had only recently begun upgrading, the Japanese had a head-start. And the US's superior research capability still overtook them.

By the end of the war, the US, not Japan, had the best tech toys.

Your points are true as well, and more similarities. But a tech disparity did show up. Just as there is obviously one between the UFP and Cardassians.

[Steve]

Note, that first comment should've been "negotiations and alliances".

[consequences]

"kill them all, the Devil will surely recognise his own"

[Renewed_Valour1]

But that was after the great decisions of his day had already been made; Blood and Iron had built the Second Reich, and negotiations, with the knowledge that Blood and Iron would back them up, would sustain it.

If anything Bismarck did everything he could do to avoid having to use blood and iron to backup his negotiations. Instead he negotiated Europe into a location where no one could afford to be an aggressor because of overwhelming alliance that would face them. Now the type of diplomacy you mention would be more akin to what the Kaiser and Bulow/his predecessors undertook. Their attempts were to bully the Great Powers into doing what they wanted by the blatant display and/or threat of the German military force. Thus all he managed to do is cement France, Russia, and England into the Triple Entente.

By the end of the war, the US, not Japan, had the best tech toys.

You should note however that Japan still had many good toys. The US never quite managed to build a torpedo as well rounded in capabilities as the Long Lance. Our fire control optics on many of our vessels including the Iowa class were inferior to their Japanese's counterparts. Japan even produced a few fighters that were arguably superior the Hellcat but never in large enough numbers or with well enough trained pilots.

[HemlockGrey]

Victory! Victory for the Federation! On the attack, on to Cardassia, and do not fire until you see the whites of their eyes!

[Sea Skimmer]

The Federation forgot the lesson of Bismarck; that the great decisions of the universe are not made by fancy speeches, by rhetoric, by negotiation; they are made by Blood and Iron .

Bismarck also knew the value of negotiations. His alliance system prior to his removal from the chancellorship and the adoption of the new disastrous Weltpolitik was the thing that prevented a war in Europe. Unless you want to argue that World War I was a good thing for Germany.

Both lacked the technological sophistication of their major foes, and partially make up for it with brute power (or attempts in that direction).

Japan at the start of the war had many "technological" advances over the US. The Zero was arguably superior to the F4F Wildcat except in the area of survivability. The only American carrier plane that I would argue was superior was the SBD. The TBF was an antiquated joke for a torpedo bomber. The Long Lance torpedo was vastly superior to the American torpedoes that often failed to even go off.

What really killed Japan was the industrial might of the US and the damage USN submarines did to their merchant shipping.

Type 93 torpedoes sank more IJN cruises when they exploded from shellfire then they did Allied cruisers.

[Steve]

You refer to the Kikka, Shinden, and other super-designs by the Japanese?

The US had the Shooting Star about to come into service, and the Brits had the Meteor.

And the reason the Iowa had fire control optics that were not as good as Japanese ones is because they didn't need them; they had gunnery radar to augment their fire-control capabilities.