Identification Cards

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-11-14 04:11pm

Haven't been here for a while(real busy), but this place is as fun as ever!

Britain is going to implement compulsory possession of ID cards. Thoughts? Comments? Rants on the Devil?

Funny where this is one instance where the religious fanatics might actually ally themselves with libertarian groups...

The Wobbly Guy

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-11-14 04:21pm

Hail Oceania!

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-11-14 04:22pm

It's positively Orwellian?

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2003-11-14 04:26pm

i don't get the problem with ID cards, we already have credit cards, passports and driving licenses... why not just combine them into the same thing? Seriously

the opposition to this confuses the fuck out of me.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-14 04:30pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Hail Oceania!

Damn straight! Big Bro isn't bowing down to anyone. On this planet, you are his bitch!

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-11-14 04:36pm

Zac Naloen wrote:i don't get the problem with ID cards, we already have credit cards, passports and driving licenses... why not just combine them into the same thing? Seriously

the opposition to this confuses the fuck out of me.

ID Cards = Mandatory issue with personal information by government

Drivers License, Passports, Credit Cards = Voluntary documents requested by an idividual for certain privledges.

Social Security Number = Number assigned to person upon birth for use in general identification, closest thing that we have to a national ID card, except that it isn't exactly an ID card, per se, but rather just a cataloging of the population with name and birthday.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-14 04:59pm

Driver's liscense, passport, and social security number all on the same card. It's like the identity theft industry has a lobby.

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-11-14 05:13pm

So, in what scenario would it be good to not have an ID?
I don't get why people would be opposed to carrying ID.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-14 05:24pm

Lord Sander wrote:So, in what scenario would it be good to not have an ID?
I don't get why people would be opposed to carrying ID.

People aren't opposed to the idea of an ID so much as they're opposed to being told by the government that it's a crime not to carry one. It's an unnecessary step, in my opinion. You already need to show ID to get into a sensitive area like an airport, and it's not like if someone gets arrested the police can't find out who he is without a mandatory ID. I'm a firm believer in the idea that for the government to either mandate or forbid individual citizens to do anything, even something seemingly trivial like an ID card, it has to make an irrefutable case to do so, and there is no argument I'm aware of that justifies mandating IDs for everyone at all times.

As for the idea of a supercard that serves as a driver's liscese, state ID, passport, and any other needed documentation, while the convenience would be nice, as I posted above, it will make identity theft trivially easy.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-11-14 05:53pm

The_Nice_Guy wrote:Britain is going to implement compulsory possession of ID cards.

Do you mean that it will compulsory for everyone to have this ID card or that it will be compulsory to carry one on you at all times?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-14 05:54pm

RedImperator wrote:
Lord Sander wrote:So, in what scenario would it be good to not have an ID?
I don't get why people would be opposed to carrying ID.
People aren't opposed to the idea of an ID so much as they're opposed to being told by the government that it's a crime not to carry one. It's an unnecessary step, in my opinion. You already need to show ID to get into a sensitive area like an airport, and it's not like if someone gets arrested the police can't find out who he is without a mandatory ID. I'm a firm believer in the idea that for the government to either mandate or forbid individual citizens to do anything, even something seemingly trivial like an ID card, it has to make an irrefutable case to do so, and there is no argument I'm aware of that justifies mandating IDs for everyone at all times.

As for the idea of a supercard that serves as a driver's liscese, state ID, passport, and any other needed documentation, while the convenience would be nice, as I posted above, it will make identity theft trivially easy.

But who's going to be able to mimic biometric data that will be used? Copying a signature and image is one thing, but DNA or iris signatures? That's not your usual back alley job.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-14 06:00pm

They can put your retina or DNA on a card, but how hard will it be to replace that data with the thief's? If it's contained on a computer chip, that can be replaced or rewritten. If it's built into the structure of the card, it will cost a fortune to make them. It will be harder for a two bit pickpocket to steal your identity, but I'm not convinced you can prevent professionals from stealing your card and cleaning out your bank account with that much data on one card.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-14 06:02pm

Soon 1984 shall come true...I'm just waiting for them to implant credit
chips under the skin next to the heart, an "unstealable" location, until
at least some gangbangers start cutting people up to get to their credchips

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-11-14 06:05pm

Thailand implemented ID cards many years ago to guard against terrorism. Now they have one of the finest counterfeiting industries in the world, this could give a big boost to the British economy.

CelesKnight · Post by **CelesKnight** » 2003-11-14 09:28pm

On a different topic, has anyone else read Robert Sawyer's Hominids trilogy? I'm about half-way through now, and in it, one culture has a device implanted in their arm that serves as a communicator, general purpose computer, and recorder. It constantly transmits what the person is doing to a recording facility. Hence, no crime. Presumably it would also increase emergency medical response as you could call out for help anywhere, and the hospital knows exactly where you are.

So, what would y'all think about something like that? Or, since we don't have their technology, perhaps it would be a GPS&Cellphone armband device that contantly transmits your location and an audio stream that's recorded.

This is an honest question. The libertarian parts of me despise it, or anything like it. However, the benefits are plain to see.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-11-14 09:35pm

Im sure a fair number of dead German Buracrats are laughing and rolling in their graves right now. (que German accent) " Paperz Please!"

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-14 09:42pm

RedImperator wrote:They can put your retina or DNA on a card, but how hard will it be to replace that data with the thief's? If it's contained on a computer chip, that can be replaced or rewritten. If it's built into the structure of the card, it will cost a fortune to make them. It will be harder for a two bit pickpocket to steal your identity, but I'm not convinced you can prevent professionals from stealing your card and cleaning out your bank account with that much data on one card.

In theory you could use a smartcard with some sort of public key infrastructure in place. The secret key would be be held by the government only and given a decent encryption algorithm it'd be near impossible to break within a usable period of time. Various public keys could be used to access the data (for example, a police officer might be able to access the driver's license portion but not the passport portion).

However, if somehow the secret key was leaked then it's all over and every card in circulation would have to be considered suspect. In addition, an 'inside source' could also overwrite the card.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-11-14 09:43pm

CelesKnight wrote:On a different topic, has anyone else read Robert Sawyer's Hominids trilogy? I'm about half-way through now, and in it, one culture has a device implanted in their arm that serves as a communicator, general purpose computer, and recorder. It constantly transmits what the person is doing to a recording facility. Hence, no crime. Presumably it would also increase emergency medical response as you could call out for help anywhere, and the hospital knows exactly where you are.

I read the first two books in the trilogy, actually. I didn't know that the third one was out.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-11-14 09:47pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Im sure a fair number of dead German Buracrats are laughing and rolling in their graves right now. (que German accent) " Paperz Please!"

I don't see your problem.

ID cards are compulsory in Germany ever since, and we are no Orwellian Oceania. So you can all stuff your paranoid fears back into the box...

As soon as you get 16, you'll get one, and have to carry it with you at all times (unless your not too far from your registered living place). Not carrying is an offense (dunno how much Euros it actually costs...)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-14 10:24pm

RedImperator wrote:They can put your retina or DNA on a card, but how hard will it be to replace that data with the thief's? If it's contained on a computer chip, that can be replaced or rewritten. If it's built into the structure of the card, it will cost a fortune to make them. It will be harder for a two bit pickpocket to steal your identity, but I'm not convinced you can prevent professionals from stealing your card and cleaning out your bank account with that much data on one card.

You'll never stamp out counterfeiters entirely, just lessen the number that can actually compete. These cards, from what I could see, have the data firmly set into the card, I don't recall a SIM like chip in the thing like most credit cards and phone cards have now. But it's early days yet and time will tell whether this makes a difference or not.

I have no qualms with it anyway.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-11-14 10:28pm

Dahak wrote: As soon as you get 16, you'll get one, and have to carry it with you at all times (unless your not too far from your registered living place). Not carrying is an offense (dunno how much Euros it actually costs...)

*Snaps off Hitler salute*

Oh sorry, I just have that instinctive reaction whenever I see statist
bullshit like that.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-14 10:30pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Dahak wrote: As soon as you get 16, you'll get one, and have to carry it with you at all times (unless your not too far from your registered living place). Not carrying is an offense (dunno how much Euros it actually costs...)
*Snaps off Hitler salute*

Oh sorry, I just have that instinctive reaction whenever I see statist
bullshit like that.

But of course, you come from the Land of the Free, Shep. Ain't no oppression over there, no siree.

Anyway, thought you worshipped the Nazis enough to adore this idea?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-14 10:31pm

Even if the potential security problems are all worked out, it doesn't change the fact that it's against the law not to carry the thing when in reality the government doesn't have a good reason to mandate it. I'm not opposed to the card in theory, and I'm not opposed to making it mandatory in order to gain entrance to airports, government buildings, and the like, but I object to the idea that a police officer can stop you on the street, demand to see your ID, and fine you if you don't have it. There's simply not a compelling case for the state forcing everyone to have it on them at all times. At least in my humble opinion.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-11-14 10:33pm

Many say that Blunkett's move to make such things compulsory will only incite anger and general uproar over the ID card idea. I think bringing it in just as a modified passport as it will likely be and leaving it at that is good enough. No reason to have a law explcitly stating you need it 24/7 unless some national emergency was announced.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-11-14 10:40pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Many say that Blunkett's move to make such things compulsory will only incite anger and general uproar over the ID card idea. I think bringing it in just as a modified passport as it will likely be and leaving it at that is good enough. No reason to have a law explcitly stating you need it 24/7 unless some national emergency was announced.

In that case I'd be fine with it, though I'd still like separate documents for my passport, driver's liscense, et al, until the technology is worked out to the point that I'm confident a casual thief couldn't steal my identity.

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