And now a "Survivor" scenario for the Trekkers.

[Metrion Cascade]

Okay. Since we're setting up scenarios where one side has a ridiculous (and hard to define) advantage, I'll have my fun now. Two teams are stuck on the planet from "Pitch Black." The goal is to make it from the crash site, to the escape ship opposite the canyon (let's say 6km between the crash site and the escape pod). Night has already fallen, and the teams are inside the crashed cargo ship with the superbats trying to get in. The fuel cells for the escape ship are on a dune buggy just outside the ship, and weigh 40 lbs apiece. There are six of them.

Team Trek:
- Data as of ST:Nemesis
- Odo (not solidified)
- Voyager's EMH, with mobile emitter
- Geordi LaForge with eyeball implants instead of VISOR
- Kes with full control of her powers as of VOY "Scorpion, part II."

Team Wars:
- Anakin Skywalker as of Episode I
- Han Solo encased in Carbonite
- Chewbacca
- Jar Jar Binks

The Force does not exist on this planet or in its universe. Now let's try this again.

[Ted C]

Okay. Since we're setting up scenarios where one side has a ridiculous (and hard to define) advantage, I'll have my fun now. Two teams are stuck on the planet from "Pitch Black." The goal is to make it from the crash site, to the escape ship opposite the canyon (let's say 6km between the crash site and the escape pod). Night has already fallen, and the teams are inside the crashed cargo ship with the superbats trying to get in. The fuel cells for the escape ship are on a dune buggy just outside the ship, and weigh 40 lbs apiece. There are six of them.

Team Trek:
- Data as of ST:Nemesis
- Odo (not solidified)
- Voyager's EMH, with mobile emitter
- Geordi LaForge with eyeball implants instead of VISOR
- Kes with full control of her powers as of VOY "Scorpion, part II."

Team Wars:
- Anakin Skywalker as of Episode I
- Han Solo encased in Carbonite
- Chewbacca
- Jar Jar Binks

The Force does not exist on this planet or in its universe. Now let's try this again.

Congratulations. I think you have, in fact, managed to devise a scenario in which the Federation is guaranteed to do better than the Star Wars side.

[Crazedwraith]

Team Trek:
- Data as of ST:Nemesis

What? Exploded?

[Kuja]

Team Trek:
- Data as of ST:Nemesis

What? Exploded?

*snigger*

[Metrion Cascade]

Team Trek:
- Data as of ST:Nemesis

What? Exploded?

No, reinforced so that M-16 rounds don't pierce him (my only explanation for why a spike pierced him in one episode and then a machine gun didn't).

[neoolong]

If the Force doesn't exist, Anakin becomes a bratty little kid that is a decent pilot, and a good mechanic.

There really is no reason for him to be here since the escape ship didn't exactly need engineering brilliance to make it work.

[Isolder74]

Very one sided. Han on cabonite? Come on if the character can not be harmed inside the box but can do nothing to help the others. He mught as well be replaced with an end table.

The Worst of Wars vs the Best of Trek, very very dishonest. A boy, a idiot, Chewie, amd a box vs Data, a shape shifter, A hologram, Leforge and someone who gets to use phycic powers. You might as well ask is a little league football team can beat the San Fransisco 49'ers

[Kuja]

You might as well ask is a little league football team can beat the San Fransisco 49'ers

Well, Metrion is still smarting from the smack she got in this thread so give her a bit of slack.

[Isolder74]

You might as well ask is a little league football team can beat the San Fransisco 49'ers

Well, Metrion is still smarting from the smack she got in this thread so give her a bit of slack.

Well I was a little sad that he reduced a wars team to basically only one usable member yet gave his side a group where everyone can contribute. Han Carbonite! Come on, Really, If someone can not contribute he should not be there at all.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Two words:

Sore. Loser.

[YT300000]

Easy. The Star Wars team wins. Chewie presses a couple buttons on the side of the carbonite slab (the ones labeled safety, defrost and activate (and he can see what they say, there are lights on panel, remember)). So SW gets a blind Han, but its so dark his blindness doesn't matter anyway. Then Jar-Jar is sent off to the ST side. He managed to defeat an AAT, and a bunch of droids, so using luck, the bumbling idiot can do anything. He manages to wipe out the ST side, and gets eaten right after. Anakin fixes the ship, while Chewie and Han guard him. They leave soon after.

Beat that MC.

[Durandal]

Data as of Nemesis is a cloud of vapor. He contributes nothing. Maybe a pungent odor. Odo is not solid, therefore he serves little purpose. He could be a puddle, and Chewie might almost slip. Or something.

The scenario plays out as follows.

Chewbacca picks up the carbonite slab with Han and crushes Geordi and the EMH's mobile emitter. If you want to argue that Chewie isn't strong enough to do so, fine. He simply snaps Geordi's neck and disables the doctor, as neither one of them could hope to stand up to a Wookie in combat.

Since, when doing crossovers, it is parsimoniously sound to assume that all special, inexplicable abilities come from the same source in order to more harmoniously merge the two universes. One of our universes has defined that source as the Force, we can safely assume that Kes' abilities come from the Force as well. As per your stipulation, it does not exist in this universe. Kes is powerless and fragile. Chewie tears her arms off with little effort.

Therefore, we're left with Chewie, Anakin and Jar Jar. Jar Jar is immediately killed by the bats. Chewie unfreezes Han, gets him moving and they make it to safety.

[Utsanomiko]

I was going to comment, but Spanky beat me to it.

*Goes back to doing other things*

[Metrion Cascade]

Two words:

Sore. Loser.

It's called a rigged game. Same as the other thread.

[Darth Wong]

No problem. The key stipulation is:

The Force does not exist on this planet or in its universe. Now let's try this again.

Since the Force does not exist on this planet, we are obviously using real-world physics rather than suspension of disbelief. Therefore, Odo instantly dies because there's no such thing as a macrocopic organic life form without fixed structure, and Data's positronic brain promptly explodes from the interaction of antimatter with matter. Moreover, Voyager's EMH, which functions by using a "confinement field" on light in order to generate a tangible presence also fails instantly, since that is nothing but pseudoscientific bullshit. And Kes has no powers either, since her powers are similar to the Force. So we are left with:

ST team:
- Data with his head blown off
- A dead pile of goo
- A small, inert, useless calculator-like device
- Geordi Laforge with some futuristic eyeball implants
- A young girl with no powers

SW team:
- A young boy with no powers
- A block of metal
- Chewbacca
- Jar-Jar Binks

Or, simplified to their respective useful components:

ST team:
- A guy with night-vision
- A young girl with no powers
SW team:
- A young boy with no powers
- Some kind of ape-like creature with enormous strength
- A bipedal humanoid amphibian with unknown strength

Geordi's night-vision would be a potential advantage, but he alone would be easily overwhelmed. Unless the two teams work together, they'd both be toast (they might be toast anyway, but that's the deal).

[Metrion Cascade]

Data as of Nemesis is a cloud of vapor. He contributes nothing. Maybe a pungent odor. Odo is not solid, therefore he serves little purpose. He could be a puddle, and Chewie might almost slip. Or something.

I said Data's still in one piece. And Odo can be solid at will. He's what's called a Founder.

The scenario plays out as follows.

Chewbacca picks up the carbonite slab with Han and crushes Geordi and the EMH's mobile emitter. If you want to argue that Chewie isn't strong enough to do so, fine. He simply snaps Geordi's neck and disables the doctor, as neither one of them could hope to stand up to a Wookie in combat.

Kes sees Chewie approaching and boils his blood. Or makes him explode. Or Odo goes T-1000 on him and Team Trek has food for a week. Or Data throws a rock at him really hard. And we know that the EMH can hide his emitter inside himself. So he puts it dead center, and Chewie has to beat down a moving forcefield to get at it.

Since, when doing crossovers, it is parsimoniously sound to assume that all special, inexplicable abilities come from the same source in order to more harmoniously merge the two universes. One of our universes has defined that source as the Force, we can safely assume that Kes' abilities come from the Force as well. As per your stipulation, it does not exist in this universe. Kes is powerless and fragile. Chewie tears her arms off with little effort.

I never agreed to assume that Kes' powers are derived from the Force. I did say Kes has all her powers, therefore she does until I say otherwise. Don't like it, write your own hypothetical. I suppose you'll correct me on which characters I picked next?

Therefore, we're left with Chewie, Anakin and Jar Jar. Jar Jar is immediately killed by the bats. Chewie unfreezes Han, gets him moving and they make it to safety.

Han can be used as cover - I'm assuming the super-bats can't penetrate Carbonite and aren't smart enough to operate the controls.

[Metrion Cascade]

No problem. The key stipulation is:

The Force does not exist on this planet or in its universe. Now let's try this again.

Since the Force does not exist on this planet, we are obviously using real-world physics rather than suspension of disbelief.

I never said that. Most sci-fi doesn't have the Force or anything like it and still has other sci-fi tech. Why? Because the person formulating the story has sole discretion in dictating what is or isn't possible there. By your standard, Anakin can't even exist because virgin birth is impossible. In fact, all of Team Wars drops dead because midichlorians don't exist. And the hypothetical can't happen because there's no way to get anyone to the planet in the first place.

Therefore, Odo instantly dies because there's no such thing as a macrocopic organic life form without fixed structure, and Data's positronic brain promptly explodes from the interaction of antimatter with matter. Moreover, Voyager's EMH, which functions by using a "confinement field" on light in order to generate a tangible presence also fails instantly, since that is nothing but pseudoscientific bullshit. And Kes has no powers either, since her powers are similar to the Force.

I said she does.

So we are left with:

ST team:
- Data with his head blown off
- A dead pile of goo
- A small, inert, useless calculator-like device
- Geordi Laforge with some futuristic eyeball implants
- A young girl with no powers

SW team:
- A young boy with no powers
- A block of metal
- Chewbacca
- Jar-Jar Binks

Or, simplified to their respective useful components:

ST team:
- A guy with night-vision

- A young girl with no powers
SW team:
- A young boy with no powers
- Some kind of ape-like creature with enormous strength
- A bipedal humanoid amphibian with unknown strength

Geordi's night-vision would be a potential advantage, but he alone would be easily overwhelmed. Unless the two teams work together, they'd both be toast (they might be toast anyway, but that's the deal).

Funny how every approach to the hypothetical has involved rewriting it. I could very easily have given Team Trek a Runabout and made Team Wars all Ewoks in manacles.

[Darth Wong]

Funny how every approach to the hypothetical has involved rewriting it.

Bullshit. You're the one who decided to throw away suspension of disbelief. I'm just making you smell your own shit.

I could very easily have given Team Trek a Runabout and made Team Wars all Ewoks in manacles.

At least that would have been honest.

[Stravo]

Or Odo goes T-1000 on him and Team Trek has food for a week.

Care to provide a SINGLE instance where Odo goes "T-1000" on ANYONE in DS9? He has routinely gone hand to hand against his foes, never forming blades or any weapons with his body. Nice pulling abilities out of your ass on that one.

And we know that the EMH can hide his emitter inside himself. So he puts it dead center, and Chewie has to beat down a moving forcefield to get at it.

Care to provide any sort of evidence that the Doctor is hardier than an average human being?

I notice a very annoying tendency for you to just throw out these statements without any fucking evidence but suddenly the otherside has to walk you through every iteration of pro Wars evidence.

[Stravo]

In fact, all of Team Wars drops dead because midichlorians don't exist. And the hypothetical can't happen because there's no way to get anyone to the planet in the first place.

Look Metrion makes yet ANOTHER unsubstantiated bullshit claim. Care to provide a source for the fact that life in Wars can't exist without Midichlorians? Other than you ass I mean.

[Metrion Cascade]

Funny how every approach to the hypothetical has involved rewriting it.

Bullshit. You're the one who decided to throw away suspension of disbelief. I'm just making you smell your own shit.

I never said that was the reason there's no Force. Fine. The Force is real, and I replace Anakin with an Ewok.

[Metrion Cascade]

Or Odo goes T-1000 on him and Team Trek has food for a week.

Care to provide a SINGLE instance where Odo goes "T-1000" on ANYONE in DS9? He has routinely gone hand to hand against his foes, never forming blades or any weapons with his body. Nice pulling abilities out of your ass on that one.

If Odo can form metal chairs and birds, he can form knives, although I suppose that he would choose not to unless forced (he HAS killed in combat). This still doesn't stop him from wrapping around Chewie (as we HAVE seen him do when struck) or simply hiding, or disguising himself as a fellow Warsie, or turning into a ten foot baseball bat for Data to swing.

And we know that the EMH can hide his emitter inside himself. So he puts it dead center, and Chewie has to beat down a moving forcefield to get at it.

Care to provide any sort of evidence that the Doctor is hardier than an average human being?

VOY "Renaissance Man" (I'm not sure of the title, but I did see the episode) shows the Doctor completely and repeatedly outclassing an armed Tuvok in close quarters combat. There is also an example of a Fed-projected Holodoctor (albeit not the real EMH) tossing Tuvok and Paris around one-handed, in the Insurrection Alpha program. Clearly Fed projectors can do the physical work of overpowering a human.

I notice a very annoying tendency for you to just throw out these statements without any fucking evidence but suddenly the otherside has to walk you through every iteration of pro Wars evidence.

Since when does anyone simply take the other side's evidence to mean exactly what they say it means without challenge?

[Metrion Cascade]

In fact, all of Team Wars drops dead because midichlorians don't exist. And the hypothetical can't happen because there's no way to get anyone to the planet in the first place.

Look Metrion makes yet ANOTHER unsubstantiated bullshit claim. Care to provide a source for the fact that life in Wars can't exist without Midichlorians? Other than you ass I mean.

It really doesn't have to be midichlorians themselves (although a statistical relationship was established by Qui-Gon in EP1). It is stated that Wars life can't survive without the Force. Hm.

Nice one - I now have to admit that the presence of anything from Wars requires the Force to exist. This barely helps, since Anakin as of EP1 can only predict threats, not use TK or force lightning.

[Stravo]

Care to provide a SINGLE instance where Odo goes "T-1000" on ANYONE in DS9? He has routinely gone hand to hand against his foes, never forming blades or any weapons with his body. Nice pulling abilities out of your ass on that one.

If Odo can form metal chairs and birds, he can form knives, although I suppose that he would choose not to unless forced (he HAS killed in combat). This still doesn't stop him from wrapping around Chewie (as we HAVE seen him do when struck) or simply hiding, or disguising himself as a fellow Warsie, or turning into a ten foot baseball bat for Data to swing.

Ah I see, let's give Odo abilities he has NEVER exhibited. There have been plenty of instances where Odo "going T-1000" would have been very helpful for himself and the crew such as the Klingon attack on the station where he did NOT 'wrap around" anyone or form a baseball bat for anyone to use or form blades. Even EVIL Odo from the mirror uyniverse did not form blades, he used a fucking gun. Sorry, we don't take kindly to people giving abilites to charcters that they have never demomstrated.

You know what? Anakin can cause poeple to explode by concentrating but he chooses not to, but he will in this scenario.

And we know that the EMH can hide his emitter inside himself. So he puts it dead center, and Chewie has to beat down a moving forcefield to get at it.

Care to provide any sort of evidence that the Doctor is hardier than an average human being?

VOY "Renaissance Man" (I'm not sure of the title, but I did see the episode) shows the Doctor completely and repeatedly outclassing an armed Tuvok in close quarters combat. There is also an example of a Fed-projected Holodoctor (albeit not the real EMH) tossing Tuvok and Paris around one-handed, in the Insurrection Alpha program. Clearly Fed projectors can do the physical work of overpowering a human.

This is hardier than your average human? Strength is one thing but you're saying that EMH can simply shrug off a Wookie whaling on him.

I notice a very annoying tendency for you to just throw out these statements without any fucking evidence but suddenly the otherside has to walk you through every iteration of pro Wars evidence.

Since when does anyone simply take the other side's evidence to mean exactly what they say it means without challenge?

When things are plainly on screen like X-Wings firing off axis then it is annoying. Why jump in a debate if you're not famaliar with the more basic elements of proof?

[Darth Wong]

Funny how every approach to the hypothetical has involved rewriting it.

Bullshit. You're the one who decided to throw away suspension of disbelief. I'm just making you smell your own shit.

I never said that was the reason there's no Force.

You didn't have to. The only logical reason for the Force to not exist on a whole planet is that we are throwing away suspension of disbelief and dropping down to real physics, in which case all of the aforementioned nasty things happen to the ST team.

Fine. The Force is real, and I replace Anakin with an Ewok.

Funny how your approach to your hypothetical scenario involves rewriting it

PS. Normally, I have to work much harder to get somebody to contradict himself or herself. You're making this too easy.