The entire galaxy??

[Shrykull]

Ok, so if we assume that the empire can defeat the borg collective, federation and other galactic nations combined (romulans, klingons, dominion, etc) How would they fare against the other civs of the Milky Way, like the Cytherians in the galactic core, which are not the feds or anyone else's allies as far as we know, but WILL defend themselves against the empire, (if they launched an invasion campaign against the entire galaxy) or the saurians, etc.

[CmdrWilkens]

I think the general tech superiority of the Empire against pretty much every major power and one-episode wonder would be decisive. Nwo whetehr they would chose to conquer rather than isolate and eventually integrate through other means is open for debate.

[StarshipTitanic]

What about the dinosaurs? I heard they were actually quite powerful?

[Shrykull]

I think the general tech superiority of the Empire against pretty much every major power and one-episode wonder would be decisive. Nwo whetehr they would chose to conquer rather than isolate and eventually integrate through other means is open for debate.

While we don't know about the Cytherians military tech, they did manage to have Barclay create a "wormhole" that got them from the alpha quadrant to the galactic core in like 30 seconds.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What about the dinosaurs? I heard they were actually quite powerful?

From what I remember they were either on par with or a little higher than the Borg, but I honestly haven't seen that episode in years...

[Darth Wong]

While we don't know about the Cytherians military tech, they did manage to have Barclay create a "wormhole" that got them from the alpha quadrant to the galactic core in like 30 seconds.

The problem with people like them is that apart from that particular trick, you really have no idea what they're capable of. For all you know, a few US Army divisions transplanted to their homeworld could conquer them.

[Enola Straight]

The Dinosaurs (Voth) Have a true Transwarp drive, can remotely slice into a computer system to abort a self-destruct order, and can use transporters to beam over a ship in its entirety.

[Darth Wong]

The Dinosaurs (Voth) Have a true Transwarp drive, can remotely slice into a computer system to abort a self-destruct order, and can use transporters to beam over a ship in its entirety.

However, nothing about their weaponry is known, IIRC. And who can't slice into a Federation computer? Federation starships can be completely slaved with a mere 5-digit remote control code, for fuck's sake.

[Metrion Cascade]

What happened to these transponder codes when Voyager ran into the Equinox? Or when the Defiant was stolen and went up against that other Fed ship? Or when the E-naught was stolen? It seems that the codes were abandoned at some point, or that not all ships have them.

[Stravo]

What happened to these transponder codes when Voyager ran into the Equinox? Or when the Defiant was stolen and went up against that other Fed ship? Or when the E-naught was stolen? It seems that the codes were abandoned at some point, or that not all ships have them.

We can assume from these above examples that the code was changed not allowing for a takeover. Also the prefix codes were still in use during TNG era as the Wounded episode clearly showed when the USS Phoenix's prefix codes were given to the Cardasians.

[Darth Wong]

What happened to these transponder codes when Voyager ran into the Equinox? Or when the Defiant was stolen and went up against that other Fed ship? Or when the E-naught was stolen? It seems that the codes were abandoned at some point, or that not all ships have them.

The codes could have been changed in those incidents. They were used in the episode involving Darwin Station, so they're still very much in existence in the TNG era. And the people in Trek are obviously computer morons, since they never thought of trying to crack the altered code (we're talking about people who think it's a fantastically innovative idea to reboot a computer and restore from backup when it's become corrupted, and who allowed it to become corrupted in the first place because they have no idea how to contain a computer virus or segregate systems from one another).

[Robert Walper]

As of yet, I'm not convinced the Empire could defeat the Borg Collective as readily as some here suggest. Defeat might be inevitable, but I'm curious how badly the Borg may bloodly the nose of the Imperial war machine.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

As of yet, I'm not convinced the Empire could defeat the Borg Collective as readily as some here suggest. Defeat might be inevitable, but I'm curious how badly the Borg may bloodly the nose of the Imperial war machine.

Why? Borg Cube shielding wouldn't be able to take a single heavy turbolaser (judging by FC) and since their weapons take several shots to bring down Federation shields, Imperial shields would near invulnerable.

[Robert Walper]

As of yet, I'm not convinced the Empire could defeat the Borg Collective as readily as some here suggest. Defeat might be inevitable, but I'm curious how badly the Borg may bloodly the nose of the Imperial war machine.

Why? Borg Cube shielding wouldn't be able to take a single heavy turbolaser (judging by FC) and since their weapons take several shots to bring down Federation shields, Imperial shields would near invulnerable.

In order to explain why I'm not so convinced, I'd have to establish an entire groundwork of evidence, explanations and reasoning on my part. Needless to say, that would require too much time. Thus that's why I'm working on my own site, which can speak for me. Actually, the site itself won't be a Imperial/Borg comparison, merely an analysis of the Borg Collective itself. Once completed, then I could better gauge the outcome between the Empire and Borg conflict. Until then, I'm a great source for Borg facts and theories, but I don't get too heavily involved in Imperial/Borg comparisons since even I have little in the way of detailed and (hopefully) rational analysis of how powerful the Borg are(which will be the entire point behind my site).

In the end, I have no problem with the Empire theoritically beating the Borg. I just want a better analysis of them rather than the typical downplaying of their abilities and purposefully bad portrayal of them by some members here.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

How long do we have to wait before we start seeing at least a chunk of your website - you don't have to put up a preliminary complete site from the get go. You could start with articles that might debunk a few "Warsie points."

[Robert Walper]

How long do we have to wait before we start seeing at least a chunk of your website - you don't have to put up a preliminary complete site from the get go.

I still have to decide on how to get the site accessible by either utilizing a free hosting site, setting up mine own, or paying for one. Right now the bare bones of the site exist solely on my personal home computer right now.

You could start with articles that might debunk a few "Warsie points."

I might do that given sufficient time. In all honesty, this isn't about bebunking "warsies", merely a more objective(I hope) view that isn't going to go out of it's way to make the Borg look bad. Just one quick example of Borg Transwarp FTL factors being underestimated:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=34874

to which I replied:

Originally posted by Shrykull:
I'm a little confused by this thing seen in Voyager's final episode. I thought transwarp conduits were independant wormholes, and don't require a "hub" to connect each one.

Transwarp Hubs seem to just be extremely fast catapult systems working within Transwarp parameters. Transwarp conduits can exist without Hubs. There seems to be three distinct types of Transwarp "conduits" the Borg utlize:

1) Established conduits without hub support. Seen in STTNG "Descent". 65 lightyears can be travelled in less than 7 seconds. That's the lower limit. Approximately 292 million C.

2) Established conduits with hub support. Seen in STVOY "Endgame". Allows the Borg Collective to deploy vessels throughout the galaxy within minutes.

3) Transwarp coil systems which "build" independant conduits just behind and in front of Borg vessels. Seen in STVOY "Dark Frontier". Speeds in excess of 630 million C can be achieved by these coils. Again, lower limit.

Is perhaps the hub another technology which creates super fast conduits, like the one Voyager rode home?

Obviously.

Other examples like "Data was impervious to Borg assimilation!"(wrong), "The Borg lied about considering Data obsolete!"(wrong) and "Borg vessels are so massive in volume for physocological warfare purposes!"(wrong), etc. I can expand upon one of those if you're interested.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Post evidence of such speeds. In "Scorpion" the Borg cubes were so slow they couldn't even catch up to Voyager a mere 40 LY away fast enough.

[Metrion Cascade]

Post evidence of such speeds. In "Scorpion" the Borg cubes were so slow they couldn't even catch up to Voyager a mere 40 LY away fast enough.

I remember nothing of such a situation. What are you referring to?

[Robert Walper]

Post evidence of such speeds. In "Scorpion" the Borg cubes were so slow they couldn't even catch up to Voyager a mere 40 LY away fast enough.

You assume lack of ability as opposed to unwilling to weaken any defenses in the area.

Anyhow...

STTNG "Descent". The Enterprise enters the Transwarp conduit either created or simply used by the rogue Borg under the command of Lore. We see the Enterprise travel through the conduit for approximately 7 seconds. Riker consults his panel display and says "According to sensors, we just travelled over 65 lightyears." 65 lightyears travelled in under 7 seconds is approxiamtely 292 million C.

STVOY "Dark Frontier". Voyager steals a single Transwarp coil from a Borg sphere(which despite this, is still able to go into Transwarp speed, thus indicating multiple coils throughoiut the ship as expected in Borg redundancy design). The Delta Flyer installs the coil, and during their search for Seven of Nine, the following scene occurs during their Transwarp speed search:

Doctor: "I've located Seven's cordial node."

Paris: "Location is approximately 200 lightyears from here."

Janeway: "Red alert. Multi-adaptive shielding online. Prepare to drop out of transwarp."

Approximately 10 seconds later(a figure I rounded up), they do. 200 lightyears travelled in under 10 seconds is approximately 630 million C.

STTNG "Endgame". Voyager utilizes the Borg's Transwarp Hub system to reach earth in minutes. I haven't done calcs for this yet as I lack distances involved. The time frame was within several minutes though, and this was when Voyager was still several decades away from Earth by conventional warp speeds.

[Robert Walper]

Post evidence of such speeds. In "Scorpion" the Borg cubes were so slow they couldn't even catch up to Voyager a mere 40 LY away fast enough.

I remember nothing of such a situation. What are you referring to?

He's referring to Seven of Nine's suggestion that Chakotay(now in command of Voyager after Janeway's injury) alter course to intercept a Borg vessel some 40 lightyears. He's just automatically assumed there is no other reason the Borg vessel didn't come to Voyager other than lack of ability to do so.

[Darth Wong]

Post evidence of such speeds. In "Scorpion" the Borg cubes were so slow they couldn't even catch up to Voyager a mere 40 LY away fast enough.

You assume lack of ability as opposed to unwilling to weaken any defenses in the area.

They had already diverted the ships; their defenses were already weakened. Their inability to move any faster than they did is not explained by your excuse.

Anyhow...

STTNG "Descent". The Enterprise enters the Transwarp conduit either created or simply used by the rogue Borg under the command of Lore. We see the Enterprise travel through the conduit for approximately 7 seconds. Riker consults his panel display and says "According to sensors, we just travelled over 65 lightyears." 65 lightyears travelled in under 7 seconds is approxiamtely 292 million C.

Transwarp conduit, not transwarp drive. Those conduits can be used by anyone even if they don't have transwarp drive, as the E-D demonstrated. They're obviously more like something akin to an artificial wormhole.

STVOY "Dark Frontier". Voyager steals a single Transwarp coil from a Borg sphere(which despite this, is still able to go into Transwarp speed, thus indicating multiple coils throughoiut the ship as expected in Borg redundancy design). The Delta Flyer installs the coil, and during their search for Seven of Nine, the following scene occurs during their Transwarp speed search:

Doctor: "I've located Seven's cordial node."

Paris: "Location is approximately 200 lightyears from here."

Janeway: "Red alert. Multi-adaptive shielding online. Prepare to drop out of transwarp."

Approximately 10 seconds later(a figure I rounded up), they do. 200 lightyears travelled in under 10 seconds is approximately 630 million C.

Onscreen timing rather than a stated figure, I take it? Do you know why we generally avoid this technique?

STTNG "Endgame". Voyager utilizes the Borg's Transwarp Hub system to reach earth in minutes. I haven't done calcs for this yet as I lack distances involved. The time frame was within several minutes though, and this was when Voyager was still several decades away from Earth by conventional warp speeds.

Transwarp conduit, not transwarp drive.

[Robert Walper]

You assume lack of ability as opposed to unwilling to weaken any defenses in the area.

They had already diverted the ships; their defenses were already weakened. Their inability to move any faster than they did is not explained by your excuse.

I'm not trying to make an "excuse". I merely dispute their "inability" to intercept Voyager as the only plausible reason for not doing so, particularily in light of the FTL factors Borg vessels are capable of.

STTNG "Descent". The Enterprise enters the Transwarp conduit either created or simply used by the rogue Borg under the command of Lore. We see the Enterprise travel through the conduit for approximately 7 seconds. Riker consults his panel display and says "According to sensors, we just travelled over 65 lightyears." 65 lightyears travelled in under 7 seconds is approxiamtely 292 million C.

Transwarp conduit, not transwarp drive.

Not disputed.

Those conduits can be used by anyone even if they don't have transwarp drive, as the E-D demonstrated.

That particular conduit, possibly. Note, the Entperirse was actually damaged by travelling through that conduit, hardly surprising given the dangerous nature of later versions of said conduits.

Additonally, it's visual characteristics are significantly different than conduits later seen in Voyager.

Add in the fact that later versions of Transwarp conduits possess temporal properties (described as temporal stress) that would fracture a ship into temporal pieces unless designed or modified to withstand this type of stress. (ref: STVOY "Shattered") One could argue any civilization without temporal knowledge(remember, even in TOS they had experience with temporal technology) would have much difficulty, if even possible use of Borg Transwarp conduits.

They're obviously more like something akin to an artificial wormhole.

With properties that can damage or incapacitate a vessel not prepared to enter them. Even the E-D was damaged entering the conduit of STTNG "Descent", despite the Enterprise being from a civilization with temporal technology and experience. That conduit looked significantly different anyhow, and was probably created by the rogue Borg, as was their vessel, thus not the best example to gauge other conduits created by the Borg Collective.

STVOY "Dark Frontier". Voyager steals a single Transwarp coil from a Borg sphere(which despite this, is still able to go into Transwarp speed, thus indicating multiple coils throughout the ship as expected in Borg redundancy design). The Delta Flyer installs the coil, and during their search for Seven of Nine, the following scene occurs during their Transwarp speed search:

Doctor: "I've located Seven's cordial node."

Paris: "Location is approximately 200 lightyears from here."

Janeway: "Red alert. Multi-adaptive shielding online. Prepare to drop out of transwarp."

Approximately 10 seconds later(a figure I rounded up), they do. 200 lightyears travelled in under 10 seconds is approximately 630 million C.

Onscreen timing rather than a stated figure, I take it? Do you know why we generally avoid this technique?

I'm all ears as to why the technique wouldn't be effective for this specific scene.

STTNG "Endgame". Voyager utilizes the Borg's Transwarp Hub system to reach earth in minutes. I haven't done calcs for this yet as I lack distances involved. The time frame was within several minutes though, and this was when Voyager was still several decades away from Earth by conventional warp speeds.

Transwarp conduit, not transwarp drive.

Not disputed.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not trying to make an "excuse". I merely dispute their "inability" to intercept Voyager as the only plausible reason for not doing so, particularily in light of the FTL factors Borg vessels are capable of.

Circular reasoning. You're using your assumption of high FTL in the absence of conduits in order to support your reasoning for high FTL in the absence of conduits.

That particular conduit, possibly. Note, the Entperirse was actually damaged by travelling through that conduit, hardly surprising given the dangerous nature of later versions of said conduits.

Stronger shielding would have solved that problem.

With properties that can damage or incapacitate a vessel not prepared to enter them. Even the E-D was damaged entering the conduit of STTNG "Descent", despite the Enterprise being from a civilization with temporal technology and experience.

And weak ships.

I'm all ears as to why the technique wouldn't be effective for this specific scene.

If a trip takes an hour, they generally don't show the ship flying for an hour. Instead, they switch from an outside view to an inside view and it is implicit that time passed during the scene change. Are you saying that this particular scene involved no scene transitions whatsoever? It was a single long camera shot?