the York Daily Record wrote:The fate of the Ten Commandments monument in Hanover’s Wirt Park sparked a letter last week from a Kansas church demanding the addition of a memorial expressing its belief that God condemns gays to hell.
In the Feb. 20 letter to the borough, the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka requested permission to place a 6-foot-tall blue granite monument in the park displaying a plaque inscribed with “Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998, at age 21, in defiance of God’s warning: ‘Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination,’ Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.”
Matthew Shepard, a student at the University of Wyoming, died at the hands of homophobic men who were convicted of a hate crime.
“The job of Westboro Baptist is to faithfully deliver the message of the scriptures,” said Shirley Phelps-Roper, church attorney and daughter of the church’s pastor, the Rev. Fred W. Phelps. “We don’t carry the big lie that God loves everyone.”
It’s a message of hate, Hanover Mayor Maggie Hormel said Monday. It cannot be condoned. Besides, Wirt Park is not a memorial park. It’s a playground and open space for children, she said.
The Kansas church’s request was an unforeseen consequence of the borough’s Ten Commandments monument issue, said council Vice President Gary Brown.
“The majority of people in Hanover do not want anything like that in a public park,” Brown said.
The issue involving the Ten Commandments in Hanover surfaced in November with a letter from Americans United for Separation of Church and State in Washington, D.C.
The presence of the about 45-year-old monument bearing the Ten Commandments in the borough’s public park violates the Constitution, the letter said.
Americans United threatened a lawsuit if the monument wasn’t removed.
The borough council initially proposed relocating the pink granite slab to a more prominent, nongovernment site, such as one of the many churches that offered to display it, as well as other options.
A public outcry led to petitions and meetings to find ways to keep the monument in Wirt Park.
A silent candlelight vigil scheduled for 7 p.m. tonight in Wirt Park in support of the monument cheered Hormel.
“Everybody can use all the prayers they can get,” she said.
The Rev. Jason Myers, pastor of Victory Free Will Baptist Church in Penn Township, has organized the vigil to overlap tonight’s 7:30 p.m. council meeting. He also urged people to sign petitions to support the Ten Commandments monument.
Those petitions, with more than 6,000 signatures, arrived in the borough last week, Brown said Monday. No more than 10 percent are borough residents.
“That causes a problem,” Brown said. “If we go to court, the borough residents would have the costs, not the petition signers.”
Church has been in battles before
Attorney Ayesha Khan for Americans United said that Phelps has tried to put up his monuments in Casper, Wyo., and Ogden, Idaho.
After court battles, both communities opted to move their Ten Commandments monuments out of the public parks to avoid a confrontation with Phelps.
“I don’t want to make light of Mr. Phelps religious views,” Khan said. “He is entitled to hold them, and the government should just stay out of the business. That’s the beauty of the Constitution. It allows people to chose any religion.”
The Westboro Baptist Church congregation numbers “precisely enough,” said Phelps-Roper, but when pressed later about attendance, she said about 100 people attend its services.
Hanover Manager Bruce Rebert said the borough’s attorneys are reviewing the letters from Americans United and Phelps.
The American Center for Law & Justice in Kentucky and the Thomas More Center in Michigan have offered to fight a court battle to keep the Ten Commandments monument in Wirt Park.
The two firms have worked together on other similar cases with some wins and some losses.
Their charge would be nothing. Borough staff would have to assist, Rebert said.
If the borough loses, it would owe from $15,000 to $100,000 in legal fees for Americans United or whoever represents the unidentified person who complained of the monument’s location.
Nathan F wrote:Yeah, right. Maybe they ought to actually read the Bible, and the parts about 'Loving thy neighbor as thyself.'
But they quoted Leviticus and it states homosexuality is an abomination. How do you reconcile what appears to be two contradictory messages? On one hand you're guided towards tolerance for your fellow man (love thy neighbour etc) while on the other hand that neighbour is abominable (lev). No offence or anything, I just find it strange.
Nathan F wrote:Yeah, right. Maybe they ought to actually read the Bible, and the parts about 'Loving thy neighbor as thyself.'
But they quoted Leviticus and it states homosexuality is an abomination. How do you reconcile what appears to be two contradictory messages? On one hand you're guided towards tolerance for your fellow man (love thy neighbour etc) while on the other hand that neighbour is abominable (lev). No offence or anything, I just find it strange.
That's not too hard, really. I find homosexuality to be wrong, I won't sugarcoat that, however, I'm not going to hate that person or treat them differently from others. Plus, it's my belief that things said in the New Testament trump those stated in the Old Testament. When you have a collection of works written over thousands of years, then you're bound to have a few contradictions, and those contradictions can usually be smoothed over by reading further into it.
Just because I find someone's actions to be wrong doesn't mean that I must hate that person.
What I couldn't believe was that they actually collected 6,000 signatures to keep the monument from being moved from the park to a more visible (but private) location. I also couldn't believe they didn't see the Westboro Baptist donation thing coming, since this is now the third time they've tried to donate this anti-gay monument.
That's just crazy. Even if I did agree with them in every particular about God's love (I'm almost diametrically opposed, but for the sake of argument) I would oppose this because they're throwing away all that they've gained in keeping the Commandments monument. This move will force the council to block the new monument and legally they're then bound to remove the Commandments as well based on that decision. They're shooting themselves in the foot. Stupid fundies.
The Westboro Baptist Church congregation numbers “precisely enough,” said Phelps-Roper, but when pressed later about attendance, she said about 100 people attend its services.
Just noticed this, but that's not exactly a big church...
I think that says something about how most people feel about Phelps.
IS it alright for people to erect an 11' Black monolith with a spinning burning inverted pentagram, with the message "Fred Phelps is going to die soon, for an eternity of meat-hook sodomy" on in bold glowing red letters? OF course not, it's absurd.
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Rye wrote:IS it alright for people to erect an 11' Black monolith with a spinning burning inverted pentagram, with the message "Fred Phelps is going to die soon, for an eternity of meat-hook sodomy" on in bold glowing red letters? OF course not, it's absurd.
No it isn't, and what they propose is not all right either. I detest Fred Phelps. >_<
Nathan F wrote:That's not too hard, really. I find homosexuality to be wrong,
Even though you cannot explain what harm it causes to anyone or anything.
I won't sugarcoat that, however, I'm not going to hate that person or treat them differently from others.
Of course not. God has enough hatred and discrimination for both of you.
Plus, it's my belief that things said in the New Testament trump those stated in the Old Testament.
Like all of Paul's homophobic amd misogynist rantings?
When you have a collection of works written over thousands of years, then you're bound to have a few contradictions, and those contradictions can usually be smoothed over by reading further into it.
Or by completely removing Paul's bullshit from the Bible, and removing the Old Testament too. The Old Testament is pure hatemongering.
Just because I find someone's actions to be wrong doesn't mean that I must hate that person.
Wrong. You support a God who promises to sentence that person to eternal torture.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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The latest development is that the residents are starting a collection so that the borough doesn't have to spend public money on the lawsuit. So far they haven't collected any money. There was also a meeting yesterday about it which essentially consisted of angry residents shouting "this is a Christian nation and those evil atheists have no right!" The crowd finally broke into a chorus of "Amazing Grace" and wouldn't stop even when the council chair started banging the gavel for order.
Hmmm... *wonders how much it would cost to donate a 1'x4'x9' monolith to that park*
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Iceberg wrote:Hmmm... *wonders how much it would cost to donate a 1'x4'x9' monolith to that park*
Erm... I'm afraid to ask.
He's refering to the monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssy, nothing perverted. I think.
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Darth Wong wrote:So if I put up a monolith praising Satan, they would have no problem with it?
Sometimes I think that's the kind of thing that's needed to make everyone realize what hypocrites these people are. What they REALLY mean when they call for "freedom of religion" seems to more often be "freedom to practice MY religion, and all the others be damned"
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Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Just remember that IIRC, it should be eleven feet tall.
You know what? I think that there should be an art movement to put monoliths in major parks all around the country. No sign, no plaque, just plonking them in the middle of the park and have them sit there being monoliths.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
Darth Wong wrote:So if I put up a monolith praising Satan, they would have no problem with it?
Sometimes I think that's the kind of thing that's needed to make everyone realize what hypocrites these people are. What they REALLY mean when they call for "freedom of religion" seems to more often be "freedom to practice MY religion, and all the others be damned"
Actually, it's more like "freedom to impose my religion on others, all others be damned." They already have the freedom to practice it.
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Just remember that IIRC, it should be eleven feet tall.
You know what? I think that there should be an art movement to put monoliths in major parks all around the country. No sign, no plaque, just plonking them in the middle of the park and have them sit there being monoliths.
T'would make my day.
T'wuly
It certainly would be interesting for my art teacher from last semester.
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