Britain One Of The Most Secular Nations On The Planet

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-02-26 08:17am

God seems to be something Limeys can live without now.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2004-02-26 08:56am

Good for us

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-02-26 09:04am

But across the entire sample, almost 30% of all atheists surveyed said they sometimes prayed.

What the fuck? I don't get it; I thought if you were an atheist you don't pray. Oh, and it's the concluding sentence, if that matters to people (ie it comes out with this line then the article is complete, no explanation or further details).

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-02-26 09:46am

Somewhat ironic, actually, considering that the head of the Empire is also the head of the Anglican Church.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2004-02-26 09:53am

It's times like this I actually like my country. I usually say it's full of complete morons, but maybe they do have their heads screwed on after all.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-02-26 10:36am

Nathan F wrote:Somewhat ironic, actually, considering that the head of the Empire is also the head of the Anglican Church.

Oh it gets better than that, by laws Schools in the UK must have assemblies which promote Christian values and prayer.

Yet in the US anybody brings religion within a 100m of public property and alarm bells ring, which I guess proves that a nation can only be as secular as the populace wants it to be.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-26 11:14am

What? We're not leading the pack?

SecondStorm · Post by **SecondStorm** » 2004-02-26 01:40pm

Joe wrote:What? We're not leading the pack?

In this you are the Omega

.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2004-02-26 02:02pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Nathan F wrote:Somewhat ironic, actually, considering that the head of the Empire is also the head of the Anglican Church.
Oh it gets better than that, by laws Schools in the UK must have assemblies which promote Christian values and prayer.

Yet in the US anybody brings religion within a 100m of public property and alarm bells ring, which I guess proves that a nation can only be as secular as the populace wants it to be.

I once complained about this issue because our primary school forced Muslim and Hindu kids to pray in the Christian fashion. My high school didn't enforce this in any way though, it almost ignored all religions completely except in RE lessons, which I thought was a fair policy (if it was indeed a policy).

Johonebesus · Post by **Johonebesus** » 2004-02-26 06:48pm

Isn't there also a House of Bishops that occasionally complains about the morality of this or that piece of legislation?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-02-26 10:35pm

Secularism save the queen!

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2004-02-27 01:28am

TheDarkling wrote:
Nathan F wrote:Somewhat ironic, actually, considering that the head of the Empire is also the head of the Anglican Church.
Oh it gets better than that, by laws Schools in the UK must have assemblies which promote Christian values and prayer.

Yet in the US anybody brings religion within a 100m of public property and alarm bells ring, which I guess proves that a nation can only be as secular as the populace wants it to be.

I have read that this has been 'evolved' into religious education rather than religious promotion.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-02-27 12:27pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
I have read that this has been 'evolved' into religious education rather than religious promotion.

Well the law hasn't changed but "promoting Christian values" is pretty loose so as long as the teachers frown on theft, murder and anti social behaviour they are fulfilling their jobs. Basically the assemblies are just supposed to offer ethical guidance (don't steal, be kind, don't vandalise and so on). Religious education (the lesson itself) as you say is more about the study of religion than promotion of a particular sect.

That being said it is rather unseemly to mix religion and politics in the UK, one of the many reasons I feel uneasy when watching a political speech from the US (especially from Bush) mentioning God during a public political discussion/event seems wrong somehow.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-02-27 12:33pm

TheDarkling wrote: That being said it is rather unseemly to mix religion and politics in the UK, one of the many reasons I feel uneasy when watching a political speech from the US (especially from Bush) mentioning God during a public political discussion/event seems wrong somehow.

Any speach, political, sports related etc... in which someone has to throw in religion makes me uncomfortable. The political ones are the worst though because they might actually mean it or they are lying their asses off to get votes.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2004-02-27 12:37pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:Oh it gets better than that, by laws Schools in the UK must have assemblies which promote Christian values and prayer.
I have read that this has been 'evolved' into religious education rather than religious promotion.

Nope. In every primary school I know of (not sure of the age range, someone else will know), children are required to pray in assembly and assembly is usually Christian themed on the whole (story telling, hymns, etc.)

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-27 12:37pm

Tsyroc wrote:
TheDarkling wrote: That being said it is rather unseemly to mix religion and politics in the UK, one of the many reasons I feel uneasy when watching a political speech from the US (especially from Bush) mentioning God during a public political discussion/event seems wrong somehow.
Any speach, political, sports related etc... in which someone has to throw in religion makes me uncomfortable. The political ones are the worst though because they might actually mean it or they are lying their asses off to get votes.

Darth Wong is going to jump on me for asking this, I know, but why does it bother you so much? You are an atheist, correct? If you believe that God does not exist then why does mention of Him bother you at all? It doesn't bother me when someone starts talking about the Easter Bunny. Why should it be any different for you?

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2004-02-27 12:38pm

I forgot to add (damn lack of edit)... There is a lesson called Religious Education which teaches about the "major" religions, but this is seperate from assembly.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2004-02-27 12:39pm

Rogue 9 wrote:If you believe that God does not exist then why does mention of Him bother you at all?

Because in the cases of schools and public addresses by world leaders it caters to certain individuals and alienates the rest.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-02-27 01:02pm

Rogue 9 wrote: Darth Wong is going to jump on me for asking this, I know, but why does it bother you so much? You are an atheist, correct? If you believe that God does not exist then why does mention of Him bother you at all? It doesn't bother me when someone starts talking about the Easter Bunny. Why should it be any different for you?

In general they make me feel uncomfortable and almost always have, even when I wasn't an atheist. I guess I've always considered religion kind of personal so I get embarassed for the people who are talking.

I would guess that if a sports star or a political figure mentioned the Easter Bunny and at least implied that he really believed in the Easter Bunny and that the Easter Bunny had a big impact on his life that you'd feel uncomfortable too.

In politics it primarilly bothers me because I'd much rather have a person in power making decisions based on logic and thought. Both of which I have to question if the person mentions religion or God a lot.

The athletes bother me because they are essentially plugging their religion. It isn't just about giving thanks to God it's about having people see and hear you give thanks to God.

Oddysseus · Post by **Oddysseus** » 2004-02-27 01:40pm

Tsyroc wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote: Darth Wong is going to jump on me for asking this, I know, but why does it bother you so much? You are an atheist, correct? If you believe that God does not exist then why does mention of Him bother you at all? It doesn't bother me when someone starts talking about the Easter Bunny. Why should it be any different for you?
In general they make me feel uncomfortable and almost always have, even when I wasn't an atheist. I guess I've always considered religion kind of personal so I get embarassed for the people who are talking.

I would guess that if a sports star or a political figure mentioned the Easter Bunny and at least implied that he really believed in the Easter Bunny and that the Easter Bunny had a big impact on his life that you'd feel uncomfortable too.

In politics it primarilly bothers me because I'd much rather have a person in power making decisions based on logic and thought. Both of which I have to question if the person mentions religion or God a lot.

The athletes bother me because they are essentially plugging their religion. It isn't just about giving thanks to God it's about having people see and hear you give thanks to God.

Yeah, at times I've ben more religioous than others. But even then I didn't like the idea of thrusting ones face in other peoples faces The bible has the parables about humility and not flaunting faith like a tacky necklace, but no one gets that.

These school prayers are abhorrent to me. It's one ting when a parent tells their young kids to pray, that's culutre and family tradition. When the school tells you to (or implies it) its societal indoctrination. Sure a kid can decide they don't want to (or the parent can say as an Atheist can tell them to not bother), but sitting their a kid usually desperately want to not stand out, be a freak, be the devil kid. Many Christians know that, which is why many oppose school prayer. But some others know it to, and want to procede, what better way to promote the proper way of living, like promoting abstinance and ignoring sex ed, expunging any chance mention that homosexuals aren't bad or wrong, what have you.

And nothing is more annoying than watching the politicans flaunt it. Does Bush constantly think of Christ? I doubt it. But it makes a good clip. And for some people that's all they need to know to vote. Then there was Dean, he was not a obsessive church goer, he didn't memorize the bible. It made him less worthy to be president. Granted, not alot of people memeorize the bible, or chunks of passages, but, darn it, the president must. Heaven forbid the president have more on his mind than the order of the testaments.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-02-27 02:55pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Darth Wong is going to jump on me for asking this, I know, but why does it bother you so much?

I can't speak for him about athletes mentioning God, but political figures should keep their mouths shut about religion when speaking in their official capacity. A senator is representative of the office of the senate to the people, and yammering on about God while in his official capacity gives the impression that religion enjoys favored status in the government.

As for athletes, well, whatever. They're private citizens. They can endorse whatever delusions they wish on national television. Granted, I think they look foolish for thanking God whenever they win but failing to mention him when they lose, but that's their prerogative.

You are an atheist, correct? If you believe that God does not exist then why does mention of Him bother you at all? It doesn't bother me when someone starts talking about the Easter Bunny. Why should it be any different for you?

Because people don't make laws based on what the Easter Bunny tells them to do. Being a Christian, it naturally doesn't bother you when lawmakers and public figures endorse your belief system. You desensitize yourself to such displays of religious affiliation because you don't see them as anything special or controversial. But put yourself in an atheist's shoes for a bit.

How would it feel if Christians were a minority, and lawmakers constantly referenced Baal and pagan gods in their speeches? How would you feel if political figures urged you, in their official capacities, to perform pagan rituals to "show your patriotism"? Wouldn't you feel just a little excluded or even a little like a second-class citizen? Like your opinion didn't matter? Suppose you wanted to take Baal's name out of the pledge of allegiance, and people started calling you a traitor to your country and threatening the lives of you and your family. How would that make you feel?

That's why church and state are supposed to be separate. The government, in order to avoid relegating certain people of certain beliefs to second-class citizen status, simply cannot comment on religion. You don't see it that way because you're part of the majority, and the majority almost always dismisses the complaints of the minorities. In this case, Christians tell atheists that "God" can mean anything they want it to mean and has no religious connotations at all, so they should stop complaining.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-02-27 03:24pm

Durandal wrote: Being a Christian, it naturally doesn't bother you when lawmakers and public figures endorse your belief system. You desensitize yourself to such displays of religious affiliation because you don't see them as anything special or controversial. But put yourself in an atheist's shoes for a bit.

I'm Catholic and as I have already said it bothers me, it isn't really about whether I believe in the deity or whatever the public figure is endorsing I just think religion is a private matter and shouldn't really be brought up in public especially not by a figure in authority.

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2004-02-27 03:28pm

Nigeria I note was listed at the very top of the list. They could be considered the most religious country in the world. Let's see what they're doing now, shall we?

Nigerian Muslim States Boycott Polio Vaccinations...AGAIN

From a linked page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3513783.stm) they give an explanation for why the vaccine was boycotted originally, and probably why it still is:

Where did the fears come from?

Many northern Nigerians have been deeply suspicious about all vaccinations for years.

Some radical Muslim preachers say that they are unIslamic - if God wants you to die, you will; if he doesn't, you won't.

Because of their boycott, polio is now spreading from Nigeria into surrounding countries where it had been eradicated. On the topic of the 'greatness' of theocracy and religion and the 'evils' of secularism, I think this speaks for itself.