Civvies on Fed ships. Why?

[2000AD]

Can someone please tell me why they put famalies on fed ships?

From "Encounter at Farpoint":
Picard: I'm not a family man, Riker, and yet starfleet has given me a ship with children on board.
Riker: Yes sir, and famalies...

Just why the f*ck do they put famalies and children on a ship that will be going into dangerous situations?????

[Isolder74]

Can someone please tell me why they put famalies on fed ships?

From "Encounter at Farpoint":
Picard: I'm not a family man, Riker, and yet starfleet has given me a ship with children on board.
Riker: Yes sir, and famalies...

Just why the f*ck do they put famalies and children on a ship that will be going into dangerous situations?????

for a similar question what was Sisco's wife and son doing on a ship headed into battle at Wolf-359?

[Evil Jerk]

In a society so soft as it became in TNG, perhaps more and more selfish crewmembers became unwilling to seperate themselves from their families and simply refused to work, and Starfleet (which seemed to be under the delusion that space travel and exploration was 100% safe) obliged.

As for a real life speculation, I can't imagine what Roddenberry was thinking. I don't care how "enlightened" humanity gets, civilians on a ship of exploration and combat that encounters peril on a regular basis is a spectacularily bad idea.

[RayCav of ASVS]

Can someone please tell me why they put famalies on fed ships?

This is seroius.....

Perhaps one reason why they do that is justification for war?

Imagine a Federation vessel instigating an incident with the Romulans, and it gets blown to pieces. The Federation can decry that the Romulans have murdered civilians and use it to rally domestic and even foreign support against the Romulans.

[Evil Jerk]

Can someone please tell me why they put famalies on fed ships?

From "Encounter at Farpoint":
Picard: I'm not a family man, Riker, and yet starfleet has given me a ship with children on board.
Riker: Yes sir, and famalies...

Just why the f*ck do they put famalies and children on a ship that will be going into dangerous situations?????

for a similar question what was Sisco's wife and son doing on a ship headed into battle at Wolf-359?

I have wondered about this for the longest time, and I just think there is absolutley no excuse for taking civilians into a war zone. What did they think they'd be good for? Human shields?
Hell, the UFP can pat itself on the back for behaving like Ayatollah run Iran.

[Mr Bean]

Hmm prehaps its a measure incase of DBZ or instert random shit here that Humanity can survive?


(IE prehaps they came so close to complete species annilation familes are allowed on all Starships as "insurance")

[Kelly Antilles]

The Federation was not at war at the beginning of NG. THerefore, ships were just for exploration and THAT is why they allowed families.

[Evil Jerk]

The Federation was not at war at the beginning of NG. THerefore, ships were just for exploration and THAT is why they allowed families.

Even though exploration in ST seems to be a bit too hazardous?
For example, the Yamato incident.

[Kelly Antilles]

Even though exploration in ST seems to be a bit too hazardous?
For example, the Yamato incident.

According to the Federation, that's just one in a thousand chance.

[pecker]

Well, we only see a small part of one single ship's voyage. I'm sure normal exploratory vessels don't run into much trouble.

As for Siko's family, I think that ship was just a stopover when it got called to duty.

[neoolong]

The Federation was not at war at the beginning of NG. THerefore, ships were just for exploration and THAT is why they allowed families.

That still doesn't mean that families should be there. Considering the types of dangerous things that exploration has uncovered in NG, families are still consistently put in risk. The warp without warp drive episode, I think it was where they used the soliton wave, is the only example I can think of right now.

Space exploration has proven to be dangerous in Star Trek. Families should not be there.

[Isolder74]

Well, we only see a small part of one single ship's voyage. I'm sure normal exploratory vessels don't run into much trouble.

As for Siko's family, I think that ship was just a stopover when it got called to duty.

And they couldn't drop the dependants off before getting there?

[Patrick Degan]

There are three possible theories to explain why the Federation courts disaster in this manner:

• Civilians on board starships is a measure to induce caution among Starfleet captains in order to curtail the rise of maverick loose-cannon officers like James Kirk and Garth of Izar.
• It could be that Starfleet is indeed pursuing some sort of Tripwire doctrine, whereby the attack and destruction of a Federation starship by a foreign power would entail civilian deaths and thereby constitute an act of war, justifying a full military response.
• Or, it could simply be that just about every survival instinct has been bred or conditioned out of the Federationists. They do seem to have no idea that the galaxy can be a dangerous place and that life-threatening situations are the norm, not the exception.

We have considerable support for the third hypothesis just from observing the basic attitudes of the Enterprise crew. In "Silicon Avatar", for example, Picard blathers incessantly about trying to communicate with the Crystalline Entity to persuade it to seek other sources of food so as not to endanger human lives. The CE may be a rare lifeform, but as Lord Wong pointed out, this is a dangerous animal which is killing people and it has to be destroyed to prevent further loss of life. Constrast this attitude with legendary Federation hero James Kirk, who also confronted similar rare lifeforms, worthy of exobiological study and preservation (theoretically) but which also constituted a real and present danger to human lives. Kirk saw rightly that he was dealing with dangerous animals that had to be put down. Kirk still had his survival priorities straight and acted accordingly. Whereas Capt. Picard has Dr. Marr arrested for doing exactly what any human in his right mind should have done —destroy a dangerous killer animal.

In "I Borg", Beverly Crusher doubts that the Borg and the United Federation of Planets are actually at war because "no formal state of hostilities was declared". The stupidity expressed in that statement goes beyond belief, and is subsequently compounded when more and more of Picard's officers, and even Guinan herself and ultimately Picard himself, get the warm-n'fuzzies over Hugh after feeding him for a few days and getting to know him, and subsequenly do not send him back to the Collective with the killer invasive computer programme.

In the DS9 episode, "The Jem'Hadar", Capt. Keogh of the Odyssey would actually have taken the ship's civillian contingent into the Delta Quadrant had Dax not reminded him that it might be a bad idea to do so —as subsequent events proved.

All in all, we have signs of a society which blindly courts danger and disaster with total unawareness of the hazards its citizens stupidly put themselves in the way of. This speaks of a society which has far more serious and fundamental problems than its mere conversion to communism, since even Soviet citizens were fully cognizant of survival realities.

[pecker]

Well, we only see a small part of one single ship's voyage. I'm sure normal exploratory vessels don't run into much trouble.

As for Siko's family, I think that ship was just a stopover when it got called to duty.

And they couldn't drop the dependants off before getting there?

The lives of two civilians don't outweigh the defense of Earth. They needed those ships at Wolf 359 yesterday.

[Evil Jerk]

Well, we only see a small part of one single ship's voyage. I'm sure normal exploratory vessels don't run into much trouble.

Yeah, like the Vico.. or the Tsiolovsky.. or the Yamato.. or the Yosmite.
Also, consider that ships like GCSs are not only explorers, but are expected to defend the Federation, remember all those confrontations with dangerous enemies? What did Admiral Haftel say in "Offspring"? One lucky shot by a Romulan and Lal and Data are kaput? Funny how he never seemed equally concerned about the civilians.

As for Siko's family, I think that ship was just a stopover when it got called to duty.

So what? They had escape pods and shuttles, the civilians should have been evacuated by any means, deliberatley sending them into battle is gross irresponsibility.

[Evil Jerk]

Well, we only see a small part of one single ship's voyage. I'm sure normal exploratory vessels don't run into much trouble.

As for Siko's family, I think that ship was just a stopover when it got called to duty.

And they couldn't drop the dependants off before getting there?

The lives of two civilians don't outweigh the defense of Earth. They needed those ships at Wolf 359 yesterday.

Two civilians? There were more than that aboard, you can plainly see them in "Emisarry".

[Isolder74]

Well, we only see a small part of one single ship's voyage. I'm sure normal exploratory vessels don't run into much trouble.

As for Siko's family, I think that ship was just a stopover when it got called to duty.

And they couldn't drop the dependants off before getting there?

The lives of two civilians don't outweigh the defense of Earth. They needed those ships at Wolf 359 yesterday.

The presance of Sisco's family indicates that they were most likely other civies there as well. anywhay how does dropping off people with Transporters delay a ship significantly?

[pecker]

And they couldn't drop the dependants off before getting there?

The lives of two civilians don't outweigh the defense of Earth. They needed those ships at Wolf 359 yesterday.

Two civilians? There were more than that aboard, you can plainly see them in "Emisarry".

Doesn't change the urgency of the mission. The civilians shouldn't have been there, but they made a choice as much as the crew did. Probably signed a 'no fault' contract with StarFleet before boarding.

[Evil Jerk]

The lives of two civilians don't outweigh the defense of Earth. They needed those ships at Wolf 359 yesterday.

Two civilians? There were more than that aboard, you can plainly see them in "Emisarry".

Doesn't change the urgency of the mission. The civilians shouldn't have been there, but they made a choice as much as the crew did. Probably signed a 'no fault' contract with StarFleet before boarding.

This is an assumption, at most we know that the civvies chose to be with the crew on exploration missions, as dangerous as they are, exploration missions are still a far cry from an all out WAR where the chances of survival are slim to none.

[pecker]

'This is an assumption, at most we know that the civvies chose to be with the crew on exploration missions, as dangerous as they are, exploration missions are still a far cry from an all out WAR where the chances of survival are slim to none.'

True. But have we ever seen a civilian say 'no' when they are told the ship is going into battle? They must either not care, have signed a contract, or were indoctrinated. With the UFP, any of those is possible.

It's simple bureaucracy. Many a captain has lamented Civvies on starships. But the boys back at HQ say it's ok, so it's ok. I mean, JANEWAY is an admiral. Why do you think their policies are Fubared

[Evil Jerk]

'This is an assumption, at most we know that the civvies chose to be with the crew on exploration missions, as dangerous as they are, exploration missions are still a far cry from an all out WAR where the chances of survival are slim to none.'

True. But have we ever seen a civilian say 'no' when they are told the ship is going into battle? They must either not care, have signed a contract, or were indoctrinated. With the UFP, any of those is possible.

I'd go for indoctrination, many times we see them show total confidence in technology that fails, ships that are proven unsafe and commanders that should be facing court martials for gross incompitence.
It remains however a really irresponsible move on the part of those in charge, and I'd really hope not to live with a government that views life so cheaply until the message is bashed into their heads a million times.

It's simple bureaucracy. Many a captain has lamented Civvies on starships. But the boys back at HQ say it's ok, so it's ok. I mean, JANEWAY is an admiral. Why do you think their policies are Fubared

I agree, Starfleet declares things to be okay without looking at the facts, it seems, and these are the results.
As for Janeway, a lot of people think they gave her a desk job to keep her the hell away from where she can really do damage, I can only hope they're that clever.

[Darth Wong]

'This is an assumption, at most we know that the civvies chose to be with the crew on exploration missions, as dangerous as they are, exploration missions are still a far cry from an all out WAR where the chances of survival are slim to none.'

Except that it's an outright lie that the Enterprise was an exploration ship. It was routinely called into battle and tense border situations, and its saucer section carried a significant portion of the ship's power generation, so its loss weakened the ship's tactical posture (see BOBW). Hence the fact that they usually carried the saucer into battle even though it was full of civilians (effectively used as human shields; the saucer generally faced their opponents and took the first hit).

True. But have we ever seen a civilian say 'no' when they are told the ship is going into battle? They must either not care, have signed a contract, or were indoctrinated. With the UFP, any of those is possible.

A contract would be irrelevant. Contracts are not legally binding if their terms are illegal, and if the Federation had anything remotely resembling a reasonable legal system, it would not be legal for children to sign away their safety. As for indoctrination, I think the consensus seems to be that this is the only answer which makes any sense.

It's simple bureaucracy. Many a captain has lamented Civvies on starships. But the boys back at HQ say it's ok, so it's ok. I mean, JANEWAY is an admiral. Why do you think their policies are Fubared

It's not bureaucracy; it's stupidity (or possibly evil; maybe they want the crew's family around as a lever to ensure duty and dedication).

[Typhonis 1]

also to stop possible defections .The guy leaves the Federation withoiut permission and his familky pays specially if they are on a ship

[Kuja]

There are three possible theories to explain why the Federation courts disaster in this manner:

• Civilians on board starships is a measure to induce caution among Starfleet captains in order to curtail the rise of maverick loose-cannon officers like James Kirk and Garth of Izar.
• It could be that Starfleet is indeed pursuing some sort of Tripwire doctrine, whereby the attack and destruction of a Federation starship by a foreign power would entail civilian deaths and thereby constitute an act of war, justifying a full military response.
• Or, it could simply be that just about every survival instinct has been bred or conditioned out of the Federationists. They do seem to have no idea that the galaxy can be a dangerous place and that life-threatening situations are the norm, not the exception.

We have considerable support for the third hypothesis just from observing the basic attitudes of the Enterprise crew. In "Silicon Avatar", for example, Picard blathers incessantly about trying to communicate with the Crystalline Entity to persuade it to seek other sources of food so as not to endanger human lives. The CE may be a rare lifeform, but as Lord Wong pointed out, this is a dangerous animal which is killing people and it has to be destroyed to prevent further loss of life. Constrast this attitude with legendary Federation hero James Kirk, who also confronted similar rare lifeforms, worthy of exobiological study and preservation (theoretically) but which also constituted a real and present danger to human lives. Kirk saw rightly that he was dealing with dangerous animals that had to be put down. Kirk still had his survival priorities straight and acted accordingly. Whereas Capt. Picard has Dr. Marr arrested for doing exactly what any human in his right mind should have done —destroy a dangerous killer animal.

In "I Borg", Beverly Crusher doubts that the Borg and the United Federation of Planets are actually at war because "no formal state of hostilities was declared". The stupidity expressed in that statement goes beyond belief, and is subsequently compounded when more and more of Picard's officers, and even Guinan herself and ultimately Picard himself, get the warm-n'fuzzies over Hugh after feeding him for a few days and getting to know him, and subsequenly do not send him back to the Collective with the killer invasive computer programme.

In the DS9 episode, "The Jem'Hadar", Capt. Keogh of the Odyssey would actually have taken the ship's civillian contingent into the Delta Quadrant had Dax not reminded him that it might be a bad idea to do so —as subsequent events proved.

All in all, we have signs of a society which blindly courts danger and disaster with total unawareness of the hazards its citizens stupidly put themselves in the way of. This speaks of a society which has far more serious and fundamental problems than its mere conversion to communism, since even Soviet citizens were fully cognizant of survival realities.

I agree with Pat here. The Feddies routinely run blind into situations that could have been avoided by having a functional brain.

[Kuja]

There are three possible theories to explain why the Federation courts disaster in this manner:

• Civilians on board starships is a measure to induce caution among Starfleet captains in order to curtail the rise of maverick loose-cannon officers like James Kirk and Garth of Izar.
• It could be that Starfleet is indeed pursuing some sort of Tripwire doctrine, whereby the attack and destruction of a Federation starship by a foreign power would entail civilian deaths and thereby constitute an act of war, justifying a full military response.
• Or, it could simply be that just about every survival instinct has been bred or conditioned out of the Federationists. They do seem to have no idea that the galaxy can be a dangerous place and that life-threatening situations are the norm, not the exception.

We have considerable support for the third hypothesis just from observing the basic attitudes of the Enterprise crew. In "Silicon Avatar", for example, Picard blathers incessantly about trying to communicate with the Crystalline Entity to persuade it to seek other sources of food so as not to endanger human lives. The CE may be a rare lifeform, but as Lord Wong pointed out, this is a dangerous animal which is killing people and it has to be destroyed to prevent further loss of life. Constrast this attitude with legendary Federation hero James Kirk, who also confronted similar rare lifeforms, worthy of exobiological study and preservation (theoretically) but which also constituted a real and present danger to human lives. Kirk saw rightly that he was dealing with dangerous animals that had to be put down. Kirk still had his survival priorities straight and acted accordingly. Whereas Capt. Picard has Dr. Marr arrested for doing exactly what any human in his right mind should have done —destroy a dangerous killer animal.

In "I Borg", Beverly Crusher doubts that the Borg and the United Federation of Planets are actually at war because "no formal state of hostilities was declared". The stupidity expressed in that statement goes beyond belief, and is subsequently compounded when more and more of Picard's officers, and even Guinan herself and ultimately Picard himself, get the warm-n'fuzzies over Hugh after feeding him for a few days and getting to know him, and subsequenly do not send him back to the Collective with the killer invasive computer programme.

In the DS9 episode, "The Jem'Hadar", Capt. Keogh of the Odyssey would actually have taken the ship's civillian contingent into the Delta Quadrant had Dax not reminded him that it might be a bad idea to do so —as subsequent events proved.

All in all, we have signs of a society which blindly courts danger and disaster with total unawareness of the hazards its citizens stupidly put themselves in the way of. This speaks of a society which has far more serious and fundamental problems than its mere conversion to communism, since even Soviet citizens were fully cognizant of survival realities.

I agree with Pat here. The Feddies routinely run blind into situations that could have been avoided by having a functional brain.