ST: Renaissance; Ent-G vs. Rogue Squadron

[Illuminatus Primus]

http://www.startrekrenaissance.com/feat ... ction_one/

Two ships start out in a nebula. Can the Rogues (armed with 150 MT-range torpedoes) take her?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I thought ST capital ships versus SW starfighters was forbiddon?

[Eframepilot]

http://www.startrekrenaissance.com/feat ... ction_one/

Two ships start out in a nebula. Can the Rogues (armed with 150 MT-range torpedoes) take her?

The Enterprise-G has 9.0 exajoule shielding. The Rogues would have to throw like 6000 proton torpedos to take the shields down, and that's without considering their regenerative factor. So, no.

OTOH, 150 megaton torpedos shouldn't even be noticed by SW capital ships with IC2 shielding. One could claim Rogue Squadron carries far far heavier torpedos (petaton or exaton range) based on their performance against Victory-class Star Destroyers, but since the usual explanation is that particle shields are much weaker, this isn't much of an argument.

So, if the E-G can hit the Rogues it wins, otherwise, stalemate.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Fuck: Forbidden.

Jesus.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Dammit. I guess Slave 1 vs. Ent-G would be better?

[Ghost Rider]

Not really since the biggest problem has been that SW ships destroy ST because of they have load outs with far higher ordinace.

Now if we take say the (insert cruiser) vs ENT-G, that's more acceptable.

Though as is...IP has limited the Rogues to only 150 MT warheads so it's up to the two sides to determine who has the better firepower and what not.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Enterprise-G has 9.0 exajoule shielding. The Rogues would have to throw like 6000 proton torpedos to take the shields down, and that's without considering their regenerative factor. So, no.

Uh, no. 1 Exajoule = 1e18 joules, or roughly 9e18 joules. 1 Megaton = 4.185e15 megatons, so this means slighlty more than 2 gigatons worth of energy absorption capacity (2.15 gigatons to be exact.) 150 megatons is ~6.3e17 joules. A squadron can volley out about 2 torps per fighter (24 total) and each fighter carries about 6 torpedoes max (in some cases its eight per max) leading to 1.5e19 joules per volley of 24 torpedoes (and they are capable of three or four such volleys.) They should have no problem overwhelming the shields.

OTOH, 150 megaton torpedos shouldn't even be noticed by SW capital ships with IC2 shielding. One could claim Rogue Squadron carries far far heavier torpedos (petaton or exaton range) based on their performance against Victory-class Star Destroyers, but since the usual explanation is that particle shields are much weaker, this isn't much of an argument.

Where exactly did you hear that particle shielding is weaker, exactly?

So, if the E-G can hit the Rogues it wins, otherwise, stalemate.

Unless they somehow manage to shoot down 40-50% of the missiles before they hit, they're going to more or less be destroyed. And even if they manage to shoot down half the volley, its going to wipe out nearly all of their shielding capacity, regenerative shields or no (unless those shields somehow instantly regain full capacity in an instant, which I somehow doubt.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm assuming the 150 MT torpedoes was supposed to refer to fighter protorps being comparable to the meter-long Slave-1's missiles (which carry a yield of 8e17 joules, or about ~191 megatons, not 150 megatons. The comparison is not unreasonable - the Falcon's concussion missiles are said to be comparable in yield to a proton torpedo, and are comparable in size to Slave-1's missiles.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Uh, no. 1 Exajoule = 1e18 joules, or roughly 9e18 joules. 1 Megaton = 4.185e15 megatons, so this means slighlty more than 2 gigatons worth of energy absorption capacity (2.15 gigatons to be exact.) 150 megatons is ~6.3e17 joules. A squadron can volley out about 2 torps per fighter (24 total) and each fighter carries about 6 torpedoes max (in some cases its eight per max) leading to 1.5e19 joules per volley of 24 torpedoes (and they are capable of three or four such volleys.) They should have no problem overwhelming the shields.

1 megaton should be equal to 4.185e15 joules, not megatons.

[PainRack]

I'm assuming the 150 MT torpedoes was supposed to refer to fighter protorps being comparable to the meter-long Slave-1's missiles (which carry a yield of 8e17 joules, or about ~191 megatons, not 150 megatons. The comparison is not unreasonable - the Falcon's concussion missiles are said to be comparable in yield to a proton torpedo, and are comparable in size to Slave-1's missiles.)

Of course, that entry was prior to AOTC and Eps II ICS, and clearly referred to the orginal ICS for ANH and other technical guides, which listed the X-wing proton torpedoes as slightly more than 1 kiloton.

Of a certain interest, if the X-wing launchers are similar in speed to the Falcon and A-wing, it should be possible to dump its entire load(if the twang in ROTJ is equivalent to the firing of concussion missiles) in less than 3 seconds.

[Connor MacLeod]

Of course, that entry was prior to AOTC and Eps II ICS, and clearly referred to the orginal ICS for ANH and other technical guides, which listed the X-wing proton torpedoes as slightly more than 1 kiloton.

The only source for that was the Star Wars Technical Journal, and it was "slightly less" than one kiloton. However, it also noted that such warheads were ALSO omnidirectional, not focused warheads (like stated in the OT ICS.) And that's hardly the only source for torpedo calcs either.

[Eframepilot]

Uh, no. 1 Exajoule = 1e18 joules, or roughly 9e18 joules. 1 Megaton = 4.185e15 megatons, so this means slighlty more than 2 gigatons worth of energy absorption capacity (2.15 gigatons to be exact.)

Well shit. That's what I get for trusting some website that listed 1 megaton of TNT as 1e13 joules.

Where exactly did you hear that particle shielding is weaker, exactly?

I think it's stated in the Essential Guides. It's also a logical inference; if the Acclamator has 200 gigaton turbolasers, the Victory ISD can presumably take at least a teraton or
so of damage. Thus if the Rogues can down Victory-class shielding with 150 megaton torps, the shields must be weaker against torps for some reason.

[Ghost Rider]

I think it's stated in the Essential Guides. It's also a logical inference; if the Acclamator has 200 gigaton turbolasers, the Victory ISD can presumably take at least a teraton or
so of damage. Thus if the Rogues can down Victory-class shielding with 150 megaton torps, the shields must be weaker against torps for some reason.

The reason is simple.

It's not weaker but it's the amount of energy the shield can effectively take in a period of time. If you overload said generator of a part of the shield grid you can down a part of the shield with less amount then trying to destroy the whole.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think it's stated in the Essential Guides. It's also a logical inference; if the Acclamator has 200 gigaton turbolasers, the Victory ISD can presumably take at least a teraton or
so of damage. Thus if the Rogues can down Victory-class shielding with 150 megaton torps, the shields must be weaker against torps for some reason.

Er, so why would the energy release of a torpedo require different sorts of shielding than that of a turbolaser?

[Connor MacLeod]

For that matter, why are you assuming that 150 Megatons is the upper limit on torpedo yields for an X-wing?

[Illuminatus Primus]

For that matter, why are you assuming that 150 Megatons is the upper limit on torpedo yields for an X-wing?

Well they shouldn't always carry anti-ship torpedoes; they could be on a patrol with anti-littoral craft torps or anti-fighter torps.

[Eframepilot]

The reason is simple.

It's not weaker but it's the amount of energy the shield can effectively take in a period of time. If you overload said generator of a part of the shield grid you can down a part of the shield with less amount then trying to destroy the whole.

OK, that makes sense. So a 200 megaton proton torpedo releases its energy far faster than a 200 gigaton turbolaser bolt and is thus actually more effective vs. shielding.

[Darth Wong]

Thus if the Rogues can down Victory-class shielding with 150 megaton torps, the shields must be weaker against torps for some reason.

And it says right in the book that they're using 150 megaton torps? I seriously doubt it, since I've never seen such a quote.

[Eframepilot]

Er, so why would the energy release of a torpedo require different sorts of shielding than that of a turbolaser?

Supposedly, ray shields extend a few inches to meters from the hull, explaining the interaction of turbolaser bolts with shields before they impact the hull seen occasionally. A torpedo could bypass the ray shields and detonate within them, causing its focused charge to be transmitted directly to the particle shields.

I don't mean to claim that this is what actually happens, it's just a reason why torpedos might not be affected much by ray shielding. Ghost Rider's explanation fits better if ray shielding can be confirmed to work against torpedos.

There is no reason for 150 megatons to be the upper limit for X-Wing's torp yields. They might be in the gigaton range, but all evidence points to torpedos being effective against capital ships for some reason other than sheer magnitude.

[Mad]

Supposedly, ray shields extend a few inches to meters from the hull, explaining the interaction of turbolaser bolts with shields before they impact the hull seen occasionally. A torpedo could bypass the ray shields and detonate within them, causing its focused charge to be transmitted directly to the particle shields.

I don't mean to claim that this is what actually happens, it's just a reason why torpedos might not be affected much by ray shielding. Ghost Rider's explanation fits better if ray shielding can be confirmed to work against torpedos.

If the torpedo passes the ray shields, then explodes against the particle shields, what is its release? Energy, typically gamma rays. Which the particle shields can't stop. But teh energy shields can. The particle shields would have to extend to at least as far as the energy shields in order to provide any meaningful protection from explosive torpedo attacks.

There is no reason for 150 megatons to be the upper limit for X-Wing's torp yields. They might be in the gigaton range, but all evidence points to torpedos being effective against capital ships for some reason other than sheer magnitude.

Or it could that the energy is released in a shorter timeframe than energy weapons, and thus overloading the shields because they can't deal with it as quickly.

[PainRack]

Eh Conner? Damn, I been mixing up my guides again.

But this is for certain, in Wedge Gamble, Micheal Stackpole in the preface clearly stated that the novelisation, were based on the X-wing games. In an historical analysis aspect, it would be similar to an author doing historical research, based on television programmes like MASH. It is possible that all firepower, technical incidents in the X-wing series can be put in doubt by putting this slant on it.

A nice and easy way out to explain away the destruction of a SSD.............

[Rogue 9]

Even in XWA the destruction of an SSD is not that easy, even with the "shield generator" trick, which they did not do in the book.

But on the other side of the coin, the Rogues didn't destroy the Lusankya. In fact, they weren't even close. They were damaging it, but it would have taken them forever to pick apart the hulk from without.

[Admiral Drason]

Even in XWA the destruction of an SSD is not that easy, even with the "shield generator" trick, which they did not do in the book.

But on the other side of the coin, the Rogues didn't destroy the Lusankya. In fact, they weren't even close. They were damaging it, but it would have taken them forever to pick apart the hulk from without.

It may have taken them a while to pick it apart but 15 fighters and a small Alderanian cruiser were able to nock it to the point of surrendering to an ISD and some A-Wings. The Executers shields were able survive two ISDs ramming it. I dont think that 15 fighters have nearly as much fire power as were giving them if that were true than a wing of fighters would make all large capital ships useless.

[Kerneth]

Even in XWA the destruction of an SSD is not that easy, even with the "shield generator" trick, which they did not do in the book.

But on the other side of the coin, the Rogues didn't destroy the Lusankya. In fact, they weren't even close. They were damaging it, but it would have taken them forever to pick apart the hulk from without.

It may have taken them a while to pick it apart but 15 fighters and a small Alderanian cruiser were able to nock it to the point of surrendering to an ISD and some A-Wings. The Executers shields were able survive two ISDs ramming it. I dont think that 15 fighters have nearly as much fire power as were giving them if that were true than a wing of fighters would make all large capital ships useless.

15 snubfighters, a small antique cruiser, and a significant number of civilian vessels modified to fire missiles using the X-Wing's targeting telemetry. According to The Bacta War, 80 warheads were striking the same shield face simultaneously in the opening volley. Unless those warhead launchers were single-shots, there's no reason the follow-up bombardments weren't just as heavy at least until the freighters ran out of shots.