Tragic decline of a flawed genius

[BoredShirtless]

Maradona could be on his death bed.





I wonder how many of you will misread that as "Madonna"?

[Spyder]

I wonder how many of you will misread that as "Madonna"?

Guilty.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Geebus, but he looks like shit now. He must've given up sport entirely to look like that.

[TheDarkling]

I would like to feel sympathy but I keep seeing the quarter finals in my minds eye and thus can't manage it.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

I am struggling to find the "genius" part of flawed genius.
He was a soccer player. So fucking what? Is Tiger Woods a genius? NO! Just an awesomely talented athelete.
No genius involved whatsoever. Genius,is to take knowledge beyond what was there before, into unknown or unexpected directions. Genius = creativity.
Genius=incredibly skilled athlete?I don't think so!
No one ever called Pele a genius, but I bet he was a better player. Didn't he INVENT certain techniques in soccer, now considered standard, but requiring high degrees of skill?
How about Muhomed Ali?
He invented several techniques for boxing, now a standard part of a skilled boxer's "toolbox."
I'm sorry, but this seems fan wanking, due to the sympathy factor of his soon to be demiseas I think of genius as people like Einstein, Hawking, Newton, Davinci, Mendel, Darwin, ect...

[Plekhanov]

I am struggling to find the "genius" part of flawed genius.
He was a soccer player. So fucking what? Is Tiger Woods a genius? NO! Just an awesomely talented athelete.
No genius involved whatsoever. Genius,is to take knowledge beyond what was there before, into unknown or unexpected directions. Genius = creativity.
Genius=incredibly skilled athlete?I don't think so!
No one ever called Pele a genius, but I bet he was a better player. Didn't he INVENT certain techniques in soccer, now considered standard, but requiring high degrees of skill?
How about Muhomed Ali?
He invented several techniques for boxing, now a standard part of a skilled boxer's "toolbox."
I'm sorry, but this seems fan wanking, due to the sympathy factor of his soon to be demiseas I think of genius as people like Einstein, Hawking, Newton, Davinci, Mendel, Darwin, ect...

Genius=Creativity alone does it, since when? If you check your dictionary you’ll find it has a slightly more flexible definition. I’d agree it’s a term much overused by sports commentators but I reckon Maradona qualifies.

By your definition Cruif is a genius because he invented a turn whereas Maradona merely won a world cup practically on his own. He may not have invented any particularly techniques (at least non that anybody else can master) but with a football at his feet he was creative in a real-time physical way that made him impossible to stop, as England fans can sadly testify.

Plenty of people have called Pele a genius but Maradona is commonly thought to be the better player as Pele was a good player in a fantastic team whereas Maradona turned a team of journeymen into world cup winners something no one else has ever done.

Is Hawking really a genius or “just an awesomely talented” physicist? I’ve heard plenty of times that he’s simply one of the best people in his field who’s reputation has been boosted by his disembodied brain type image. Whereas Maradona is arguably the best footballer ever caught on film.

[TheDarkling]

with a football at his feet he was creative in a real-time physical way that made him impossible to stop, as England fans can sadly testify.

I can testify to the fact that he can get away with a blatant hand ball like no other.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

One simple invention does not a genius make.
ONE of the elements of genius is creativity.
WANK WANK WANK. He can't be that great, except as a soccer player.
What specificaly is "creative with your feet," any way? Read that as highly skilled, and overrated by emotionaly involved fans. Did he do something no one has ever done before? Did he do something no on else can do? (Besides cheat)
I would rate him as a Savant, not a genius.
Perhaps an Idiot Savant, as he couldn't stop doing coke to save his stupid life.
I see no genius here, just a great athlete. A washed up, has been, cokehead, dying athlete. One like many before, and many to follow. Had it all, and pissed it away.

[Jon]

He stole our world cup.

Let him die.

[Plekhanov]

I can testify to the fact that he can get away with a blatant hand ball like no other.

I try not to think about that too much, makes me almost as impotently angry as when I hear a Blair & Bush press conference.

[Plekhanov]

One simple invention does not a genius make.

Aren’t the simplest inventions, the ones which anybody could have come up with but didn’t (like the Cruif Turn or Cat Flap for example), sometimes the ones that require real creative genius?

What specificaly is "creative with your feet," any way? Read that as highly skilled, and overrated by emotionaly involved fans.

Sure I’m emotionally involved, as an Englishman I hate the cheating scumbag, but that doesn’t mean I can’t acknowledge him the greatest player ever. I never actually said "creative with your feet," I think that creativity comes from the brain but the general point of my post was that he did stuff that nobody else even thought of doing. The fact that his genius (or creativity) manifested itself through his feet rather than through his sketch pad and paint brush (Davinci), his science (most of the guys you listed) or his words (Shakespeare) is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned.

Did he do something no one has ever done before? Did he do something no on else can do? (Besides cheat)

Yes, he turned a team of journeymen into world cup winners, before the coke took over he turned every team he played for into winners.

I would rate him as a Savant, not a genius.

Could you please elaborate on your definitions of Savant and Genius, I’m not familiar with the uses you give them.

I see no genius here, just a great athlete.

He was a terrible athlete but a great footballer, to football fans his less than intimidating physique and poor preparation just underlines the greatness of his footballing brain.

A washed up, has been, cokehead, dying athlete. One like many before, and many to follow. Had it all, and pissed it away.

Since when has a general ability not to fuck your life up been a requirement to be a genius? Many people who I’m sure even you would regard as geniuses, say Mozart for example, were hardly renowned for their life skills.

You clearly don’t like to see sports players lauded as geniuses on the whole I agree but on occasion they deserve the accolade and I’d say that Maradona (without doubt one of the 2 best football players ever) certainly does.

Your definition is too narrow, why are only whose “who take knowledge beyond what was there before” geniuses, can’t you allow those who create transient moments of greatness the honour too? I don’t get ballet but if those that do say Nureyev was a genius I can accept that, just as I don’t see the greatness of Hendrix but when mates who play guitar call him a genius I can accept that maybe they hear something I don’t.

When you say “Genius,is to take knowledge beyond what was there before” (and you seem to have a specific form of knowledge in mind) you are effectively limiting genius to the aspects of human achievement that can be typed or reproduced on paper, I’d expand your definition to those who can push human achievement, in all its forms, to new heights regardless of how it can be recorded.

[Nathan F]

Heard about this on DW today. Didn't mean anything to me, seeing as though I never watch soccer.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Plekhanov
A Savant is a person with a talent that is almost impossible for a "normal" person to have. Examples are, (but not limited to,) perfect pitch, photograpghic memory, the ability to play any musical instument at a professional level the first time you ever pick it up, lightning calculator, (the ability to do VERY long and complicated mathematical problems instantly in your head) ect.. You get the idea.
An Idiot Savant is usualy a severely retarded or autistic person with a talent like above. Dustin Hoffman as "The Rain Man" was an Idiot Savant. The use of Idiot Savant was an inacurate description when used with double capital letters, but the misuse was intentional. A Savant who is also an idiot is a better phrase, but the black humor requires you be familiar with the true meaning to get the joke. Much like Popeye The Sailor, and his "mispronunskiations," when he "gets a might disgusdipated with the sichiashins."
Personaly I find the reverence acorded to athletes a bit puzzling, in light of their bad life choices, and bad personal behaviour.
He was once a great player, but that's it. WAS. He is a dismal failure by any other standard. Finding him on balance, "a great man," shows lack of balance in the decision making process of those that would honor him.
He is worthy only of pathos, and comtempt, for he had so much, and did so little with it.
Typical of coddled athletes, or movie stars for that matter. They are told how great they are for so long by the sycophants and leeches, they believe they truly are. One good look in the mirror should be enough for any former professional athlete to know just how bad a shape they are in.
After you FIRST heart attack, if you don't get the message, you truly deserve you inevitable fate. Has the phrase, "Serious as a heart attack" ever been used in your presence? when your heart skips a beat, and there ain't a pretty girl involved, it is a reality check that many don't live through.
For a SOCCER player to have a heart attack, (Soccer players are second only to swimmers, and one ahead of basketball players in the excellent condition of their hearts) should be a wake up call far beyond an icewater enema in it's attention grabbing effect.
I despise such wretches, and their enablers more so, for ruining what good there was, by acting as a false mirror. When the money goes, the hanger ons find some other poor sap to tell pleasing lies to.
Micheal Jackson is one such hideous thing, that once was good.
Whatever great athletic feats he achieved, they are overshadowed by his failures as a person.
I don't expect a realistic evaluation of a professional sportswriter, as they are fan wanks of the first degree, taking such a small part of life, and blowing it so ridiculously out of proportion.
Science, Politics, and Economics are life and death issues, directly affecting the lifespan and quality thereof. Sports is so far down on the importance of both our personal lives, and the fate of humanity, it is laughable to describe any athlete as a great man, unless he turns his success into something good outside of sports. Like working with children, or advancing education, bringing busness back to his hometown.
THOSE things will make a man great, not anything he might achieve in sports.

[h0rus]

Plekhanov
A Savant is a person with a talent that is almost impossible for a "normal" person to have. Examples are, (but not limited to,) perfect pitch, photograpghic memory, the ability to play any musical instument at a professional level the first time you ever pick it up, lightning calculator, (the ability to do VERY long and complicated mathematical problems instantly in your head) ect.. You get the idea.
An Idiot Savant is usualy a severely retarded or autistic person with a talent like above. Dustin Hoffman as "The Rain Man" was an Idiot Savant. The use of Idiot Savant was an inacurate description when used with double capital letters, but the misuse was intentional. A Savant who is also an idiot is a better phrase, but the black humor requires you be familiar with the true meaning to get the joke. Much like Popeye The Sailor, and his "mispronunskiations," when he "gets a might disgusdipated with the sichiashins."
Personaly I find the reverence acorded to athletes a bit puzzling, in light of their bad life choices, and bad personal behaviour.
He was once a great player, but that's it. WAS. He is a dismal failure by any other standard. Finding him on balance, "a great man," shows lack of balance in the decision making process of those that would honor him.
He is worthy only of pathos, and comtempt, for he had so much, and did so little with it.
Typical of coddled athletes, or movie stars for that matter. They are told how great they are for so long by the sycophants and leeches, they believe they truly are. One good look in the mirror should be enough for any former professional athlete to know just how bad a shape they are in.
After you FIRST heart attack, if you don't get the message, you truly deserve you inevitable fate. Has the phrase, "Serious as a heart attack" ever been used in your presence? when your heart skips a beat, and there ain't a pretty girl involved, it is a reality check that many don't live through.
For a SOCCER player to have a heart attack, (Soccer players are second only to swimmers, and one ahead of basketball players in the excellent condition of their hearts) should be a wake up call far beyond an icewater enema in it's attention grabbing effect.
I despise such wretches, and their enablers more so, for ruining what good there was, by acting as a false mirror. When the money goes, the hanger ons find some other poor sap to tell pleasing lies to.
Micheal Jackson is one such hideous thing, that once was good.
Whatever great athletic feats he achieved, they are overshadowed by his failures as a person.
I don't expect a realistic evaluation of a professional sportswriter, as they are fan wanks of the first degree, taking such a small part of life, and blowing it so ridiculously out of proportion.
Science, Politics, and Economics are life and death issues, directly affecting the lifespan and quality thereof. Sports is so far down on the importance of both our personal lives, and the fate of humanity, it is laughable to describe any athlete as a great man, unless he turns his success into something good outside of sports. Like working with children, or advancing education, bringing busness back to his hometown.
THOSE things will make a man great, not anything he might achieve in sports.

Well fucking said. I think you just closed the thread with that.

[Col. Crackpot]

A-FUCKING-MEN Chrostas! I for one, am so tired of the pedestals that athletes, actors and other 'celebreties' are placed upon by the ignorant masses. This man kicked a fucking ball for a living, and now he is dying. Aside from the normal level of human compassion for the dying, i feel nothing for him, and neith should anyone else who doesn't know him.

[BoredShirtless]

A-FUCKING-MEN Chrostas! I for one, am so tired of the pedestals that athletes, actors and other 'celebreties' are placed upon by the ignorant masses.

What about artists, actors and sports people [entertainers] who excel? Would you complain if I put Robert DeNiro on a pedestal? I think he's one of the most talented actors alive.

This man kicked a fucking ball for a living, and now he is dying. Aside from the normal level of human compassion for the dying, i feel nothing for him, and neith should anyone else who doesn't know him.

Maradona did more then just kick a ball; he showed skills far beyond normal soccer players. Take Da Vinci. There are many painters; but Da Vinci stands out. Da Vinci was a genius; so too was Maradona. So is Robert DeNiro.

[Col. Crackpot]

A-FUCKING-MEN Chrostas! I for one, am so tired of the pedestals that athletes, actors and other 'celebreties' are placed upon by the ignorant masses.

What about artists, actors and sports people [entertainers] who excel? Would you complain if I put Robert DeNiro on a pedestal? I think he's one of the most talented actors alive.

This man kicked a fucking ball for a living, and now he is dying. Aside from the normal level of human compassion for the dying, i feel nothing for him, and neith should anyone else who doesn't know him.

Maradona did more then just kick a ball; he showed skills far beyond normal soccer players. Take Da Vinci. There are many painters; but Da Vinci stands out. Da Vinci was a genius; so too was Maradona. So is Robert DeNiro.

Robert DiNero is an actor and desrves credit for being a great actor, nothing more. Leonardo DaVinci on the other hand was brilliant mathematitian, artist, archetect, inventor and engineer. His contibutions to society have endured the test of time and are renown to this day. Hardly comprable to an actor or a soccer player whose contributions will be long forgotten in a hundred years.

[BoredShirtless]

A-FUCKING-MEN Chrostas! I for one, am so tired of the pedestals that athletes, actors and other 'celebreties' are placed upon by the ignorant masses.

What about artists, actors and sports people [entertainers] who excel? Would you complain if I put Robert DeNiro on a pedestal? I think he's one of the most talented actors alive.

This man kicked a fucking ball for a living, and now he is dying. Aside from the normal level of human compassion for the dying, i feel nothing for him, and neith should anyone else who doesn't know him.

Maradona did more then just kick a ball; he showed skills far beyond normal soccer players. Take Da Vinci. There are many painters; but Da Vinci stands out. Da Vinci was a genius; so too was Maradona. So is Robert DeNiro.

Robert DiNero is an actor and desrves credit for being a great actor, nothing more. Leonardo DaVinci on the other hand was brilliant mathematitian, artist, archetect, inventor and engineer. His contibutions to society have endured the test of time and are renown to this day. Hardly comprable to an actor or a soccer player whose contributions will be long forgotten in a hundred years.

Bah, I'm not saying DeNiro is equal to DaVinci. I'm just saying Maradona was a genius, as was DaVinci. Not as much a genius; but still, a genius.

[Plekhanov]

I’m familiar with the term idiot savant and with the over rated “The Rain Man” it’s just your rather novel definitions of Genius and Savant I was unclear on thanks for clarifying them.

He was once a great player, but that's it. WAS. He is a dismal failure by any other standard

Which is probably why the thread was titled “Tragic decline of a FLAWED genius”.

Finding him on balance, "a great man," shows lack of balance in the decision making process of those that would honor him.

Why are you arguing that Maradona isn’t a “great man” (a term you use repeatedly in your last post)? He obviously isn’t and I never said he was, nor has anybody else on this thread, the disputed description is “flawed genius” could you rebut them instead of a straw man.

Hope you enjoyed that rant against the vapidity of celebrity culture now you’ve got that out of your system could you please address points I actually made in my previous post. In case I didn’t make myself clear enough last time I’ll restate what I regard as my 2 main points:

1. What has an abject failure to live a sensible well-rounded life got to do with being a genius? Many people widely regarded as geniuses have self-destructed Van Gogh, Charlie Parker and Bryan Wilson to name just a few.

2. Why should the accolade genius be confined to those who “to take knowledge beyond what was there before” and you seem to have a rather narrow field of knowledge in mind as you only list scientists. Can’t you accept that people who’s achievements are of a more transient nature be they sporting or artistic can achieve the status of genius?

[BoredShirtless]

It's time to open the dictionary, and see what it says:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=genius&r=67

gen·ius ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jnys)
n. pl. gen·ius·es

1. a.Extraordinary intellectual and creative power.
b.A person of extraordinary intellect and talent: “One is not born a genius, one becomes a genius” (Simone de Beauvoir).
c.A person who has an exceptionally high intelligence quotient, typically above 140.

2. a.A strong natural talent, aptitude, or inclination: has a genius for choosing the right words.
b.One who has such a talent or inclination: a genius at diplomacy.

3. The prevailing spirit or distinctive character, as of a place, a person, or an era: the genius of Elizabethan England.

4. pl. ge·ni·i (jn-) Roman Mythology. A tutelary deity or guardian spirit of a person or place.

5. A person who has great influence over another.

6. A jinni in Muslim mythology.

Maradona fits definition 2. Case closed.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

WANK WANK WANK WANK............

[2000AD]

He was a genius (the second goal against England proved that), but he was also a blatent cheat (the first goal).
If someone really good at something is found cheating it's generally the cheating that sticks in peoples minds and the genius is forgotten.

[BoredShirtless]

WANK WANK WANK WANK............

He's a genius, but to wank over him is taking it a little too far.