EU as Parallel Universe; so what?

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2004-06-26 09:47pm

It seems to me that certain people, such as Darkstar, see 'EU is parallel universe' as some sort of silver bullet that magically negates any bit of relevance it might have. The thing is, though, that even granting that it is a parallel universe (which I do not believe it is), it is still perfectly relevant as a source.

Think about it, the EU has all the same people, ships, planets, etc. as the movies. Therefore, even if it is a different universe, it is only slightly divergent. This means that if a Star Destroyer can conduct a BDZ in the EU, it would almost certainly be able to do the same thing in the movies, if the oppurtunity had presented itself.

That is, unless this 'parallel universe' also had, for some reason, much higher weapons yields, but thats pretty obviously bull shit.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-06-26 10:07pm

Yeah, that's actually been one of the common counter-arguments against the parallel universe argument.

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2004-06-26 10:22pm

I thought that was probably the case, but I'd never seen it brought up here, so I decided to post it.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-06-26 11:19pm

Quadlok wrote:I thought that was probably the case, but I'd never seen it brought up here, so I decided to post it.

As true as that is, the point of why they (rabid trekies) bring it up is that it produces wiggle room.

Thats it, nothing more. Just wiggle room.

Cromag · Post by **Cromag** » 2004-06-26 11:24pm

My whole take on the issue is that there really isn't one. Just about everyone takes it for granted that GL's quote was given in the context of what is and isn't canon in the SWU for purposes of debate; after seeing the quotes in context, I think all he meant to address is the question of whether there is going to be another trilogy (a big question at the time because of GL's Rolling Stone interview).

I think the whole "parallel universe" remark is really just a colloquialism to refer to the seperate entities that are LFL, the "universe" GL works in, and Lucas Arts, which he has very little personal involvement in product development (ie. to him, the office is another universe).

I don't think the interviewer for Cinescape or TV Guide (source for another of his quotes regarding the same issue about a third trilogy) gave a flying fuck about what is and isn't canon and thus GL's answers shouldn't be construed as anything but a denial that he has 3 more SW movies to make.

I actually debated DS on this shortly before he was banned and as far as that segment of the debate his only response was something like "your reasons for your interpretation are excellent, but I'm sticking to my interpretation anyway."

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-06-27 12:11am

Its clear from numerous canon policy quotes that there is an overall continuity and that EU material provides a window (that gets more "foggy" the further away from the films it gets) into that continuity. The "parallel universe" quote ADMITS that the EU "intrudes in between the movies". It's pretty clear. I've yet to see anyone actually come up with a rebuttal to these points that don't centre on simply repeating the phrase parallel universe over and over and over and over and over and over.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2004-06-27 12:26am

I'll try to make this my only "Me too" post, but I just happened to think exactly the same thing as the OP yesterday.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-28 08:06am

Knife wrote:
Quadlok wrote:I thought that was probably the case, but I'd never seen it brought up here, so I decided to post it.
As true as that is, the point of why they (rabid trekies) bring it up is that it produces wiggle room.

Thats it, nothing more. Just wiggle room.

The sad thing is, remove the EU and the Empire still retains a lot of it kick ass ability. We still retain our ability to deploy 20 vessels from a sector fleet, a communications vessel as well as Death Squadron at any critical battle in our vicinity. We still retain megaton output from a light turbolaser, much less our gigaton heavy turbolaser from the ICS. As Mad pointed out, it didn't matter that a single light turbolaser equals a photon torpedo. An ISD II have 200 turbolaser batteries.

Going by canon alone, and even removing the ICS, the Empire still wins.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-06-28 01:32pm

I will say that in my little bit of time debating on DS's board, not having ANY EU material can make it frustrating at times, because certain basic facts that underly conclusions made based on the films are from the EU. Take Darth Maul's trip from Coruscant to Tattooine--it's cited as proof of incredibly fast speeds because Coruscant is near the center of the galaxy while Tattooine is near the edge, but their exact locations are only mentioned in the EU. It's true what's been said about wiggle room--bring up Darth Maul's trip in a debate with Darkstar or one of his sycophants, and you'll get "But it's not canon Coruscant and Tattooine are far away!"

Yes, I stuck to DS's definition of "canon", just because I didn't feel like arguing something as thumping dull as canon policy. Since there were plenty of stupid claims about Trek's abilities that didn't require Star Wars at all to refute, I stuck to those arguments mostly.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-06-28 01:41pm

Episode 2 fixes part of that with Padma's and Anakin's discussion of the rescue party from Coruscant going to Geonosis. It is stated that Coruscant is far from the place and Tatooine is much closer implying they could reach the place in a matter of minutes while it would take almost a day for the Jedi rescue team to get there and that might be too late.

So episode two has actually decreased the wiggle room in that reguards

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-28 09:48pm

And don't forget in Episode IV when Luke told 3P0 that Tatooine is the planet furthest from the bright center of the galaxy. (You could even be an a$$ to Darkstar by taking this quote literally and calculating hyperspeeds going from the center of the galaxy to the absolute outer-most segments ...

)

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-06-29 12:20am

RedImperator wrote:I will say that in my little bit of time debating on DS's board, not having ANY EU material can make it frustrating at times, because certain basic facts that underly conclusions made based on the films are from the EU. Take Darth Maul's trip from Coruscant to Tattooine--it's cited as proof of incredibly fast speeds because Coruscant is near the center of the galaxy while Tattooine is near the edge, but their exact locations are only mentioned in the EU. It's true what's been said about wiggle room--bring up Darth Maul's trip in a debate with Darkstar or one of his sycophants, and you'll get "But it's not canon Coruscant and Tattooine are far away!"

Luke skywalker statements, and hehehe, the map displayed in Eps II show otherwise. They are at least half the galaxy away.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2004-06-29 12:24am

Haze Gray wrote:And don't forget in Episode IV when Luke told 3P0 that Tatooine is the planet furthest from the bright center of the galaxy. (You could even be an a$$ to Darkstar by taking this quote literally and calculating hyperspeeds going from the center of the galaxy to the absolute outer-most segments ... )

The obvious rebuttal to that would be that it's Luke's way of telling Threepio he's landed in West Bumfucking Egypt, and doesn't give useful information about distance.

Haze Gray · Post by **Haze Gray** » 2004-06-29 11:05am

"West Bumfuckin Egypt"? That's a new one.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-06-29 12:46pm

PainRack wrote:
RedImperator wrote:I will say that in my little bit of time debating on DS's board, not having ANY EU material can make it frustrating at times, because certain basic facts that underly conclusions made based on the films are from the EU. Take Darth Maul's trip from Coruscant to Tattooine--it's cited as proof of incredibly fast speeds because Coruscant is near the center of the galaxy while Tattooine is near the edge, but their exact locations are only mentioned in the EU. It's true what's been said about wiggle room--bring up Darth Maul's trip in a debate with Darkstar or one of his sycophants, and you'll get "But it's not canon Coruscant and Tattooine are far away!"
Luke skywalker statements, and hehehe, the map displayed in Eps II show otherwise. They are at least half the galaxy away.

The Skywalker statement is useless--"If there's a bright center of the universe, you're on the planet farthest from." Only the most literal-minded cretin would take that to mean that's actually a measure of distance and not a fancier way of saying "This planet is the armpit of the universe" or "This planet sucks sweaty monkey balls". And even if it was a statement of distance, it's meaningless because the universe has no center. And even if the universe did have a center, the Empire doesn't span the entire universe, just one galaxy. Coruscant may, for all that statement tells us, be the second further planet from the bright center of the universe.

The map is more useful. It certainly shows Kamino being out basically in the middle of nowhere, but I don't recall a "You Are Here!" label for Coruscant, and if I recall correctly, the maps showing Geonosis, Naboo, and Tattooine all showed a small section of the galaxy, not the whole thing. Again, ambiguity--without EU evidence, a hardheaded canon purist could say "there's no way to tell Coruscant isn't just out of frame to the right, and Kamino just out of frame to the left".

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-06-29 06:05pm

PainRack wrote:
Knife wrote:
Quadlok wrote:I thought that was probably the case, but I'd never seen it brought up here, so I decided to post it.
As true as that is, the point of why they (rabid trekies) bring it up is that it produces wiggle room.

Thats it, nothing more. Just wiggle room.
The sad thing is, remove the EU and the Empire still retains a lot of it kick ass ability. We still retain our ability to deploy 20 vessels from a sector fleet, a communications vessel as well as Death Squadron at any critical battle in our vicinity. We still retain megaton output from a light turbolaser, much less our gigaton heavy turbolaser from the ICS. As Mad pointed out, it didn't matter that a single light turbolaser equals a photon torpedo. An ISD II have 200 turbolaser batteries.

Going by canon alone, and even removing the ICS, the Empire still wins.

In fact, the EU is almost damaging with all its minimalist shit, like a unit = a clonetrooper, or that the entire population of Coruscant is one million or somesuch. Dismissing the EU would actually leave us with more raw power, the trouble is that there are no hard numbers for them, only lower limits that we can deduce.