DVDs & the million dollar question

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-09-26 06:36pm

Ok, now that the DVDs, with their insanely crisp picture quality are out, maybe we can finally settle this: Can we make out what happened to the Entor? Is the tower gone? If its gone, why no flash or debris? Anyone got screencaps?

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-09-26 06:43pm

Checking. Of course, anyone with a DVD-ROM and MPC can take caps

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2004-09-26 07:19pm

404 error

Edit: nevermind

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-09-26 07:19pm

Links removed, hope you got them.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-09-26 07:25pm

Well I got them all, but I can't host them.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-09-26 07:27pm

It looks like the neck was the only thing left after the hit.

Damn is that high quality.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-09-26 07:29pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:Well I got them all, but I can't host them.

Great for hosting.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-09-26 07:35pm

It is more like:

The cloud oscures our view, so we simply CAN'T tell, if the tower is destroyed or not. BUT! We only see parts of the broken asteroid flying away, but no debris from the ship.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-09-26 07:43pm

I think there's a missing frame somewhere near the end. I put together an animation and there's a place where the ships appear to lurch forward.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-26 07:45pm

Got 'em. Just put them on Photobucket.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-09-26 07:48pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:I think there's a missing frame somewhere near the end. I put together an animation and there's a place where the ships appear to lurch forward.

Yeah, I think a few frames might be missing. I'll redo it soon.

EDIT: Redone, several frames added. Shows everything from immediately before impact to right before cutting to Executor (the Captain's image is midway in, IMO it shows the full expression and actions of him before the images starts to distort (not fade out like cut off, ended ones, but like it is jammed or being interfered with like in TPM).

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 08:41pm

The main bridge itself is entirely missing. That much I can see clearly. When I get home I will work with photoshop to show this.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-26 08:46pm

You can see the spindles that hold up the sensor dome silhouetted against what I presume is the Executor's engine glow in that pic. Right place relative to the rest of the Star Destroyer, right shape for what I think it is, and it means that the bridge is still there behind that cloud of fragmented rock.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 08:47pm

Rogue 9 wrote:You can see the spindles that hold up the sensor dome silhouetted against what I presume is the Executor's engine glow in that pic. Right place relative to the rest of the Star Destroyer, right shape for what I think it is, and it means that the bridge is still there behind that cloud of fragmented rock.

Impossible. The spindles holding the domes are ABOVE the engine glow as it is.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-26 08:54pm

Nope. See the bridge neck silhouetted against the engine glow? Follow it up to where it levels off to the top of the bridge, which it does before it hits the top of the engine glow. The bridge is there.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 09:00pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Nope. See the bridge neck silhouetted against the engine glow? Follow it up to where it levels off to the top of the bridge, which it does before it hits the top of the engine glow. The bridge is there.

That is not the bridge neck silhouetted by the engine glow. Check how far back that is from the main ship using reference points on the ISDs hull. For that to be true the neck would have to have been physicaly moved back more then 100 meters. HDS tried this claim before and was soundly defeated. What you think is a silhouette of the neck is the outline of the engines themselves. Pure chance that it looks the same.

As I said, I will use photoshop to make some demonstrations and point out how the main bridge had to be destroyed.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-09-26 09:31pm

Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see if the bridge tower is destroyed or not, because, we can't see through the cloud. I've studied the picture with risen contrast, and this cloud is simply blocking our view.

So stop trying to see something.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 09:43pm

Tribun wrote:Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see if the bridge tower is destroyed or not, because, we can't see through the cloud. I've studied the picture with risen contrast, and this cloud is simply blocking our view.

So stop trying to see something.

The matter of the cloud is irrelevent. Had the bridge tower survived we would see part of it beyond the cloud.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-09-26 10:04pm

Alyeska wrote:
Tribun wrote:Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see if the bridge tower is destroyed or not, because, we can't see through the cloud. I've studied the picture with risen contrast, and this cloud is simply blocking our view.

So stop trying to see something.
The matter of the cloud is irrelevent. Had the bridge tower survived we would see part of it beyond the cloud.

Then where's the tower debris?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 10:10pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Tribun wrote:Actually, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see if the bridge tower is destroyed or not, because, we can't see through the cloud. I've studied the picture with risen contrast, and this cloud is simply blocking our view.

So stop trying to see something.
The matter of the cloud is irrelevent. Had the bridge tower survived we would see part of it beyond the cloud.
Then where's the tower debris?

Debris are irrelevent. If the tower itself is missing in critical areas it means for all intents and purposes the tower is detroyed.

Now the likely explination on the tower falls into three catagories.

1: Tower is vaporized
2: Tower is blown off and the direction of the debris are clouded
3: The tower is massively crumpled into the neck

1 is unlikely. 2 is possible, but the energy required shouldn't be in the asteroid. 3 is most likely because the energy in the asteroid is there and the ISD is designed to survive much more thermal and energy like events, not KE from an asteroid.

Psycho Smiley · Post by **Psycho Smiley** » 2004-09-26 10:27pm

please forgive the crappy paint skills.

Before impact

After impact

The second shot is the largest the cloud gets before going dark. This isn't perfect by any means, but there is obviously a part of the bridge missing.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 10:34pm

You have shown exactly what I have been trying to say. Thank you.

Psycho Smiley · Post by **Psycho Smiley** » 2004-09-26 10:54pm

I wish the bridge was intact, but it isn't. I just figure, if we are going to mock RSA for seeing whatever he wants in screenshots, we had better be willing to see whatever is really there, even when it goes against us. I don't like what I see, but there it is. If someone can prove me wrong, then by all means feel free.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-26 10:58pm

This isn't as much a problem as you think. The vast majority of SW weapons are thermal or other various types of energy weapons. KE is not something SW armor is optimized for. Thats what the shields are for. That a warship would optimize its armor for the most common weapon is not a surprise. Infact its not unknown that armor can only be optimized for one or the other.

Now I find this whole thing funny. Darkstar already settled this particular debate with his own work on that picture. That people still considered this a million dollar question kinda shows people were merely arguing for the sake or arguing. At least Poe and myself saw the light before this.

Psycho Smiley · Post by **Psycho Smiley** » 2004-09-26 11:27pm

Alyeska wrote:Darkstar already settled this particular debate with his own work on that picture. That people still considered this a million dollar question kinda shows people were merely arguing for the sake or arguing.

*Looks*

So he did. I've never actually looked into this issue before now. I can hear the screams now: "Holy shit, RSA was right! It's the end of the world!" Seriously, though, the guy called it right.

Alyeska wrote:This isn't as much a problem as you think. The vast majority of SW weapons are thermal or other various types of energy weapons. KE is not something SW armor is optimized for. Thats what the shields are for. That a warship would optimize its armor for the most common weapon is not a surprise.

True. Mike basically says here that equivalent damage would require a metric fuckload of energy-weapon fire.