A forced choice....

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-09 12:18am

Simple but complex question based on the previous Kill the Fundies threads because I think people missed the point so I'm going to re-phrase it and try agian

The sitaution

There is a forgien exchange student from the mythical Country of Elbonia. Its his last day with you(Lets call him Jospeh Mao to give you an idea where this is going) its his last day here the last time you'll ever see him... You happen to have glimpsed Joe's future however and you can see him going back to his homeland, and assendin to power and doing great... terrible things, horrific attrostys, it does not matter they are you simply know that he will kill ten million people before he dies. Its his last day but you can prevent it, you've know all along about this but prehaps never gotten a chance yet... In any case there he is sitting towards the Back in the Library just relaxting till the Bus comes to take him to the Airport in five mintues, Your standing behind a box-case unknow to him he has his back turned and you have a 9mm in your pocket loaded. Its impossible for you to get away if you shoot, There are Camera's everywhere and it just so happens theres a Dunken Donuts accross the street....

What do you do?

Do you take the Shot?
Walk away?
Or prehaps a third option? Keep in mind you will NEVER see him agian after this

Think carfuly and consider

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-11-09 12:24am

Before I vote, Bean, I must know. How reliable is this premonition? Is it Jedi vision of the future reliable, or is it Keeper of Time reliable? If I know for certain that he will end up killing ten million, I will gladly give up my life to save them. But if its not a reliable premonition, I won't take his life. Sentient life one of the rarest things in this universe, and to take one is wrong.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-09 12:25am

This thread may not be nessecary, as my previous thread has been reopened.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-09 12:34am

I would walk away. It's not my place to try to tempt fate and to try to change the future. With the way things would work out, I would either end up in jail or dead (not beneficial to me), and knowing the way the world works, someone else will be there to take his place (not beneficial in general). So, walking away prevents one, maybe even two deaths. This may not seem like a lot compared to what is going ot happen, but even one death, in my eyes, is enough to prevent.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2002-11-09 01:00am

If I knew for sure, really knew, hell yeah I`d take the bastard out. Then I`d tell everybody why, who knows?, I might get off on insanity.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 01:21am

Frank Hipper wrote:If I knew for sure, really knew, hell yeah I`d take the bastard out. Then I`d tell everybody why, who knows?, I might get off on insanity.

Yeah, but I would really have to know for sure. Of course you'll be even more certain to get off if you say that God told you to do it to save everyone.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-11-09 02:23am

Yoda said "Always in motion is the future." I happen to agree with him. My own immediate well-being, operating on the certain information I have now (i.e. knowing that I'd get caught) takes precedence over a premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty. I wouldn't take the shot.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 02:40am

GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Yoda said "Always in motion is the future." I happen to agree with him. My own immediate well-being, operating on the certain information I have now (i.e. knowing that I'd get caught) takes precedence over a premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty. I wouldn't take the shot.

You're basing it on the premise that the premonition is not certain. i think we need some clarification on that point to make a decision.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-09 02:42am

neoolong wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Yoda said "Always in motion is the future." I happen to agree with him. My own immediate well-being, operating on the certain information I have now (i.e. knowing that I'd get caught) takes precedence over a premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty. I wouldn't take the shot.
You're basing it on the premise that the premonition is not certain. i think we need some clarification on that point to make a decision.

How is he basing it on it being unclear? It seems to me that the premonition is *quite* clear, but <read my above post>.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 02:44am

verilon wrote:
neoolong wrote:
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:Yoda said "Always in motion is the future." I happen to agree with him. My own immediate well-being, operating on the certain information I have now (i.e. knowing that I'd get caught) takes precedence over a premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty. I wouldn't take the shot.
You're basing it on the premise that the premonition is not certain. i think we need some clarification on that point to make a decision.
How is he basing it on it being unclear? It seems to me that the premonition is *quite* clear, but <read my above post>.

I know. But given the grand master's quote he has the belief that it is uncertain. "premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty"

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-09 02:45am

I think Bean is being clear on what'll happen.

In that case, I would take the shot. Then turn myself in to the police.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-09 02:46am

neoolong wrote:I know. But given the grand master's quote he has the belief that it is uncertain. "premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty"

I see. But I was basing what I said on the premise that he was going along the same lines as what I had previously written.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 02:51am

verilon wrote:
neoolong wrote:I know. But given the grand master's quote he has the belief that it is uncertain. "premonition of indifferent quality and unknown reliabilty"
I see. But I was basing what I said on the premise that he was going along the same lines as what I had previously written.

Ah. Uh I think I get what you said. Oh, and I think it is better in this case to stop the threat you know than a potential possible threat.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-09 02:59am

neoolong wrote:
verilon wrote:I see. But I was basing what I said on the premise that he was going along the same lines as what I had previously written.
Ah. Uh I think I get what you said. Oh, and I think it is better in this case to stop the threat you know than a potential possible threat.

Maybe so, but we all have our opinions, and we all have separate moral systems. I believe that it is unjust to kill another human, whether they are going to go on to kill more or not. (Yes, even in war) I think that it is also unjust to play with fate and try to change what is going to happen. I do believe in predestination as far as what is going to eventually happen, but I also think that everything wll happen if it will happen. Call it an irrational belief if you will, but that is my belief. So, I think that even if I were to kill hi, someone else would take his place and carry out what is to happen, and it wouls only mean one more death.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-11-09 03:07am

Mr Bean wrote:Simple but complex question based on the previous Kill the Fundies threads because I think people missed the point so I'm going to re-phrase it and try agian

The sitaution

There is a forgien exchange student from the mythical Country of Elbonia. Its his last day with you(Lets call him Jospeh Mao to give you an idea where this is going) its his last day here the last time you'll ever see him... You happen to have glimpsed Joe's future however and you can see him going back to his homeland, and assendin to power and doing great... terrible things, horrific attrostys, it does not matter they are you simply know that he will kill ten million people before he dies. Its his last day but you can prevent it, you've know all along about this but prehaps never gotten a chance yet... In any case there he is sitting towards the Back in the Library just relaxting till the Bus comes to take him to the Airport in five mintues, Your standing behind a box-case unknow to him he has his back turned and you have a 9mm in your pocket loaded. Its impossible for you to get away if you shoot, There are Camera's everywhere and it just so happens theres a Dunken Donuts accross the street....

What do you do?

Do you take the Shot?
Walk away?
Or prehaps a third option? Keep in mind you will NEVER see him agian after this

Think carfuly and consider

It would be the height of moral presumption to kill someone for crimes they haven't committed yet. I may have just been giving the foresight of a god, but I haven't been given the wisdom of god. I walk away, past the donut shop, and keep on going until I find the first tavern, and then get really drunk. He can go on to his own destiny; and his choices and his fate will be his own, and the punishment will come after.

To presume to have the wisdom to decide otherwise simply because you've been given a vision would be the frightful height of arrogance.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-09 03:14am

I walk away. Ten million people I don't know ain't worth a life in prison.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 03:26am

Personally, I think that if it is a certainty that he will kill so many lives then it doesn't matter that he hasn't yet done it, only that he will. To twist the scenario a bit, would you kill him if you knew that he had killed 10 million and that he would kill more? Of course only you have this knowledge and only you can act.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2002-11-09 03:30am

neoolong wrote:Personally, I think that if it is a certainty that he will kill so many lives then it doesn't matter that he hasn't yet done it, only that he will. To twist the scenario a bit, would you kill him if you knew that he had killed 10 million and that he would kill more? Of course only you have this knowledge and only you can act.

I think I'd report him......

Third choice for original question as well! Report Mao to the proper authorities and get them to believe you. That way you don't have to kill the bastard, yet he'll get caught before he can do anything bad.

That's assuming the authorities believe you.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-09 03:31am

Shinova wrote:
neoolong wrote:Personally, I think that if it is a certainty that he will kill so many lives then it doesn't matter that he hasn't yet done it, only that he will. To twist the scenario a bit, would you kill him if you knew that he had killed 10 million and that he would kill more? Of course only you have this knowledge and only you can act.
I think I'd report him......

Third choice for original question as well! Report Mao to the proper authorities and get them to believe you. That way you don't have to kill the bastard, yet he'll get caught before he can do anything bad.

That's assuming the authorities believe you.

And if they don't...?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 03:32am

Shinova wrote:
neoolong wrote:Personally, I think that if it is a certainty that he will kill so many lives then it doesn't matter that he hasn't yet done it, only that he will. To twist the scenario a bit, would you kill him if you knew that he had killed 10 million and that he would kill more? Of course only you have this knowledge and only you can act.
I think I'd report him......

Third choice for original question as well! Report Mao to the proper authorities and get them to believe you. That way you don't have to kill the bastard, yet he'll get caught before he can do anything bad.

That's assuming the authorities believe you.

You can do that? Hmm. Somehow I doubt that they would believe you though.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-09 10:01am

Notice the forplay between people, some jump to question the evidance seeking to avoid the decision rather then picking, Others quick pick one or the other and justfiy it, No one has yet to give an answear and not justfiy it....

However to those questiong to force you in(Its called Forced Choice for a reason)

You learned of Joe's future through Divine intervention lets say... ALL of them, Yep Jesus, Budda, Mohammed, Visnu, and Lord Wong(

) all agree that he is going to murder those ten million people in his home country and no one will learn of it until a full year later Mao is that good,

Lets say you also had a vision, A seeking, and.... you saw it in Tea Leaves plus on the Nightly News

Its GOING to happen fokes I was quite plain on that one, It will happen and theres nothing you can do about it after the five minutes are up...

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-09 10:03am

I still wouldn't shoot.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-09 10:07am

I'd shoot. One life versus ten million is an easy choice.

And explaining why I shot him would be more than enough to get me off one an insanity plea. It's a rather easy choice.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-09 10:09am

Stormbringer wrote:I'd shoot. One life versus ten million is an easy choice.

And explaining why I shot him would be more than enough to get me off one an insanity plea. It's a rather easy choice.

You're gonna have plenty of fundies back you up on the voice of God thing, but too many against you because you shot him.

Maybe we should pose this question over at Creationweb, see what they think?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-09 11:41am

If it was certain, yes I'd kill him.

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