The Kerry Campaign summed up in one image

[MKSheppard]

[Admiral Valdemar]

Failed biological experiments? Help me out here!

[MKSheppard]

Failed biological experiments? Help me out here!

In american politics, the hawk is traditionally THE SHEP.

THe Dove is the peaceniks.

Kerry's entire campaign is like that, veering one moment from
SHEP moments to Kumbaya moments

[Andrew J.]

Whereas Bush is a hawk that's slammed straight into a sheer cliff face, of course..l

[CJvR]

Whereas Bush is a hawk that's slammed straight into a sheer cliff face, of course..l

Well it looks a bit dazed...
Most amusing Shep.

[Gil Hamilton]

So the Kerry campain is a mutant Austrian bird?

[Admiral Valdemar]

In american politics, the hawk is traditionally THE SHEP.

THe Dove is the peaceniks.

Kerry's entire campaign is like that, veering one moment from
SHEP moments to Kumbaya moments

I was hoping you'd give a cute explanation like that.

I do recognise the whole hawk/eagle and dove divide, but I see it as a bit unfair to label Kerry as some horrible hybrid. Too much of either is bad.

Besides, I thought THE SHEP was a ferret or dolphin?

[Darth Wong]

This is what happens when extremists cannot comprehend the concept of a moderate.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Woah, you mean there's a middle-ground? That's cuckoo talk.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Failed biological experiments? Help me out here!

In american politics, the hawk is traditionally THE SHEP.

THe Dove is the peaceniks.

That dove is one fat motherfucker.

[SyntaxVorlon]

Failed biological experiments? Help me out here!

In american politics, the hawk is traditionally THE SHEP.

THe Dove is the peaceniks.

That dove is one fat motherfucker.

Wait, Newt Gingrich is on the ticket?

[fgalkin]

Failed biological experiments? Help me out here!

In american politics, the hawk is traditionally THE SHEP.

THe Dove is the peaceniks.

Kerry's entire campaign is like that, veering one moment from
SHEP moments to Kumbaya moments

Ah but the bird has two heads. Russia, anyone?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Nathan F]

This is what happens when extremists cannot comprehend the concept of a moderate.

So now John Kerry is a moderate? Riiiiight....

[Illuminatus Primus]

No stupid, it was a hypothetical; whoever drew that could not comprehend that there could be middle-ground between doves and hawks and sees only the false dilemma.

But keeping exploring that 4 x 4 box of yours.

[Darth Wong]

This is what happens when extremists cannot comprehend the concept of a moderate.

So now John Kerry is a moderate? Riiiiight....

Not to you perhaps, but for the rest of the first-world nations, he would actually be considered right-wing. It's not my fault that your perspective is so horrifically skewed, your political vision so incredibly myopic, and your level of knowledge about world politics so woefully ignorant that you think he's an uber-liberal on any scale other than the one that you apparently carry around in your right-wing jingoistic head.

BTW, you conveniently ignored the fact that the opening post of this thread made fun of how he is neither a dove or a warmonger, thus indicating that, as I said, certain people do not understand how to comprehend the concept of a moderate. If you feel he's a pure dove, go ahead and say so: that would only further your public proclamation of personal ignorance.

[Ender]

This is what happens when extremists cannot comprehend the concept of a moderate.

So now John Kerry is a moderate? Riiiiight....

Not to you perhaps, but for the rest of the first-world nations, he would actually be considered right-wing. It's not my fault that your perspective is so horrifically skewed, your political vision so incredibly myopic, and your level of knowledge about world politics so woefully ignorant that you think he's an uber-liberal on any scale other than the one that you apparently carry around in your right-wing jingoistic head.

I'll cop to not knowing much about international politics: how exactly is Kerry right wing?

[Darth Wong]

I'll cop to not knowing much about international politics: how exactly is Kerry right wing?

He is not anti-war; he is just anti-warthewayBushranit. He is not pro-socialized medicine; he is just anti-privatizedmedicinethewayitsdonenow. He is not pro-gay marriage; he is just anti-gaymarriageamendment.

He is only a hardline liberal if you have no idea what a real liberal looks like.

[Nathan F]

This is what happens when extremists cannot comprehend the concept of a moderate.

So now John Kerry is a moderate? Riiiiight....

Not to you perhaps, but for the rest of the first-world nations, he would actually be considered right-wing. It's not my fault that your perspective is so horrifically skewed, your political vision so incredibly myopic, and your level of knowledge about world politics so woefully ignorant that you think he's an uber-liberal on any scale other than the one that you apparently carry around in your right-wing jingoistic head.

BTW, you conveniently ignored the fact that the opening post of this thread made fun of how he is neither a dove or a warmonger, thus indicating that, as I said, certain people do not understand how to comprehend the concept of a moderate. If you feel he's a pure dove, go ahead and say so: that would only further your public proclamation of personal ignorance.

In the US presidential election, John Kerry's image in France or Britain is hardly relevant to how he is seen to the general populace of the US. In the general perspective of US politics, John Kerry is left of center. Not world politics, US politics. I think you're missing the point of the cartoon, too. It's saying that at times he tries to come off as a hawk, while at others tries to come off as a dove. In fact, I don't really know *what* John Kerry is. So maybe you should slow down a bit with the kneejerk holier-than-thou reactions.

[Darth Wong]

In the US presidential election, John Kerry's image in France or Britain is hardly relevant to how he is seen to the general populace of the US. In the general perspective of US politics, John Kerry is left of center. Not world politics, US politics.

Nope, there's true liberals in the US. You're just so busy marginalizing them that you have convinced yourself that they don't exist or are insane and therefore easily dismissable. So they do not appear to exist as far as you are concerned. In the rest of the world, they're not shouted down and beaten off the stage the way they are in America.

I think you're missing the point of the cartoon, too. It's saying that at times he tries to come off as a hawk, while at others tries to come off as a dove.

Which is precisely how knee-jerk extremists try to conceptualize moderates, because they simply can't understand people who don't consistently pick one side or the other.

In fact, I don't really know *what* John Kerry is. So maybe you should slow down a bit with the kneejerk holier-than-thou reactions.

On the contrary, your answer proved my holier-than-thou reaction completely correct. Thank you.

[Nathan F]

In the US presidential election, John Kerry's image in France or Britain is hardly relevant to how he is seen to the general populace of the US. In the general perspective of US politics, John Kerry is left of center. Not world politics, US politics.

Nope, there's true liberals in the US. You're just so busy marginalizing them that you have convinced yourself that they don't exist or are insane and therefore easily dismissable. So they do not appear to exist as far as you are concerned. In the rest of the world, they're not shouted down and beaten off the stage the way they are in America.

I don't doubt that these so-called 'true liberals' are in the US. But how do you describe a 'true liberal'? I consider myself a classical liberal in the sense that I believe smaller gov't is better and that I think that the least amount of government intervention in peoples lives while still being able to operate effectively is the best way to have things. Liberal and Conservative are terms that are at best relativistic, no matter where you are. And this is the *US* Presidential election, not the UN Secretary General. As I said earlier, the perceptions of liberal and conservative in the rest of the world don't matter worth a crap when it comes to the general middle of the road voter in the US. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

I think you're missing the point of the cartoon, too. It's saying that at times he tries to come off as a hawk, while at others tries to come off as a dove.

Which is precisely how knee-jerk extremists try to conceptualize moderates, because they simply can't understand people who don't consistently pick one side or the other.

So now I'm a knee jerk extreemist because I don't see John Kerry as being a moderate. Thanks for proving my point on you being a holier-than-thou reactionary who can't stand that other nations might not have the exact same political bearing as yourself.

[Darth Wong]

I don't doubt that these so-called 'true liberals' are in the US. But how do you describe a 'true liberal'?

Learn to read, jackass. I already explained several criteria that people in the rest of the world would use to describe a liberal, in a prior post to Ender.

Which is precisely how knee-jerk extremists try to conceptualize moderates, because they simply can't understand people who don't consistently pick one side or the other.

So now I'm a knee jerk extreemist because I don't see John Kerry as being a moderate.

No, you're a knee-jerk extremist because you can't even understand why someone would not consistently stick to one of the two warring sides. You don't even understand the concept of a moderate.

Thanks for proving my point on you being a holier-than-thou reactionary who can't stand that other nations might not have the exact same political bearing as yourself.

Awww, poor baby. You can't refute the points made about what liberalism is, even in the US (what, you've never heard of people in America who support gay marriage and socialized medicine while opposing the war? ), so you resort to "Oh yeah? Well, you're ... you're ... a stuck-up foreigner!!!!"

Good job refuting negative stereotypes about right-wing Americans

[Nathan F]

I don't doubt that these so-called 'true liberals' are in the US. But how do you describe a 'true liberal'?

Learn to read, jackass. I already explained several criteria that people in the rest of the world would use to describe a liberal, in a prior post to Ender.

Ok, going by your definition, then John Kerry is a liberal, because he's against doing things the way Bush has done them. But earlier you said that John Kerry was a moderate... Nice way of contradicting yourself, ass. :rolleyes:

Which is precisely how knee-jerk extremists try to conceptualize moderates, because they simply can't understand people who don't consistently pick one side or the other.

So now I'm a knee jerk extreemist because I don't see John Kerry as being a moderate.

No, you're a knee-jerk extremist because you can't even understand why someone would not consistently stick to one of the two warring sides. You don't even understand the concept of a moderate.[/quote]

I don't think I'm the one here who can't understand the concept of moderate, and hardly the knee-jerk extreemist. I said that John Kerry was a liberal, from the general American point of view, which is pretty obvious by his voting record in Congress. And since when has sticking to your guns on a *single aspect of an issue* been anti-moderate? You're going off on tangents grasping at straws here, my friend.

Thanks for proving my point on you being a holier-than-thou reactionary who can't stand that other nations might not have the exact same political bearing as yourself.

Awww, poor baby. You can't refute the points made about what liberalism is, even in the US (what, you've never heard of people in America who support gay marriage and socialized medicine while opposing the war? ), so you resort to "Oh yeah? Well, you're ... you're ... a stuck-up foreigner!!!!"

Good job refuting negative stereotypes about right-wing Americans [/quote] I never used 'stuck up foreigner' in any context. I said that outside opinions don't have bearing on how most people in the US vote, jackass. I think you're the one who needs the reading lessons.

[Darth Wong]

Learn to read, jackass. I already explained several criteria that people in the rest of the world would use to describe a liberal, in a prior post to Ender.

Ok, going by your definition, then John Kerry is a liberal, because he's against doing things the way Bush has done them. But earlier you said that John Kerry was a moderate... Nice way of contradicting yourself, ass. :rolleyes:

Yet again, you demonstrate your stupidity. I said he was not a liberal because he's not for gay marriage, socialized medicine, or an outright antiwar stance. But by all means, if you wish to make yourself look like an idiot by totally misreading what I wrote, go right ahead.

I don't think I'm the one here who can't understand the concept of moderate, and hardly the knee-jerk extreemist. I said that John Kerry was a liberal, from the general American point of view, which is pretty obvious by his voting record in Congress. And since when has sticking to your guns on a *single aspect of an issue* been anti-moderate? You're going off on tangents grasping at straws here, my friend.

On the contrary, the concept of "liberal" vs "conservative" is simply two points on a spectrum, and you have utterly failed to show that the spectrum, even in America, is actually as narrow as you suggest. In fact, by conceding that people who fit my definition are known to exist even in America, you are admitting that the spectrum is wider than you say it is, and that your "general American point of view" is just an artificially narrowed spectrum. The better to fit with your narrow mind, I suppose.

I never used 'stuck up foreigner' in any context. I said that outside opinions don't have bearing on how most people in the US vote, jackass. I think you're the one who needs the reading lessons.

More bullshit. Anyone can see that you are trying to dismiss my comments because I'm not an American, even though you have already conceded that the political spectrum in America is wider than you initially claimed.

[Rogue 9]

Yet again, you demonstrate your stupidity. I said he was not a liberal because he's not for gay marriage, socialized medicine, or an outright antiwar stance.

None of which are necessary to be considered a liberal in the U.S. political spectrum. In Europe he'd be considered a flaming right-winger, but this isn't Europe. He may not hold far left views on those issues, but when taken in combination with his views on gun control, taxation, and economic policy among other things, then yes, he is left enough to be considered a liberal by U.S. standards.

On the contrary, the concept of "liberal" vs "conservative" is simply two points on a spectrum, and you have utterly failed to show that the spectrum, even in America, is actually as narrow as you suggest. In fact, by conceding that people who fit my definition are known to exist even in America, you are admitting that the spectrum is wider than you say it is, and that your "general American point of view" is just an artificially narrowed spectrum.

1.) The concept of "liberal" and "conservative" are not points, but ranges on the spectrum. True, people who fit your definition of liberal exist. They're in the Green Party, and are a small minority, not carrying enough weight to significantly tip the scales to the European definition of far left. 2.) The spectrum isn't artificially shortened, but there's not very much weight out there on the leftmost tip.

More bullshit. Anyone can see that you are trying to dismiss my comments because I'm not an American, even though you have already conceded that the political spectrum in America is wider than you initially claimed.

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing him accurately point out that the American and European political spectrums have their centerpoint or center of mass, so to speak, in different areas, thus making John Kerry be considered a liberal here whereas he is not considered such elsewhere.

[Illuminatus Primus]

He may not hold far left views on those issues, but when taken in combination with his views on gun control, taxation, and economic policy among other things, then yes, he is left enough to be considered a liberal by U.S. standards.

We're so fucked if our political spectrum is so narrow that "other protectionism" and "no tax cuts for Enron and people making 200,000+" and "would've renewed AWB" is far left vs. the right of "protectionism" "tax cuts for Enron and 200,000+er" and "support but not renew AWB."

1.) The concept of "liberal" and "conservative" are not points, but ranges on the spectrum. True, people who fit your definition of liberal exist. They're in the Green Party, and are a small minority, not carrying enough weight to significantly tip the scales to the European definition of far left.

Or their name is Howard Dean or Hillary Clinton.

2.) The spectrum isn't artificially shortened, but there's not very much weight out there on the leftmost tip.

Except those two heavy Democrat hitters, but who's counting?