Disengagment plan vote

[Ace Pace]

Its starting today, might end tommarow.
Just listened to Sharon giving a hell of a speach...

Sharon opens parliament debate on Gaza

Monday, October 25, 2004 Posted: 12:53 PM EDT (1653 GMT)

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon asked parliament Monday to approve his plan to withdraw from Gaza and part of the West Bank, saying it will help peace efforts, while Israeli troops raided a Gaza refugee camp to halt mortar fire, killing 14 Palestinians.

Opening a two-day debate, Sharon told the Knesset he was determined to press ahead with his plan despite the difficulties it will cause for the country.

In a speech repeatedly interrupted by heckling, the former settler patron asked lawmakers to support his "unilateral disengagement" plan to help Israelis live in peace after four years of fighting with the Palestinians.

"The disengagement plan does not come in place of negotiations," Sharon said. "It is a necessary step during a period in which negotiations are not possible. All is open when terror -- this murderous terror -- stops."

Sharon is expected to win Tuesday's vote, but will need a respectable margin of victory to silence increasingly vociferous opponents demanding a national referendum on the Gaza withdrawal. Sharon opposes a referendum, which would take months to prepare, as a stalling tactic.

Hours before the debate started, Israeli troops raided the Khan Younis refugee camp in southern Gaza to halt Palestinian mortar fire. Violence in Gaza has increased in the months since Sharon announced his plan.

Palestinians view the plan with skepticism and worry Sharon will use the withdrawal to blunt international criticism and strengthen Israel's hold over large parts of the West Bank and east Jerusalem, lands the Palestinians claim for a state.

Sharon says his plan is necessary to boost Israel's security after four years of fighting. He says the pullout, combined with a West Bank barrier under construction, would enable Israel to strengthen its hold on large settlement blocs in the West Bank, where most settlers live.

"We have to do this, despite all the suffering involved," Sharon said. "This will decrease hostility, and will lead us forward on the path to peace with the Palestinians."

Jewish settlers accuse Sharon of caving in to Palestinian violence and fear the withdrawal will be the first step in a larger pullback.

The disengagement plan would mark the first time Israel pulls down Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza since capturing those territories in 1967.

Reaching beyond parliament, Sharon appealed Monday for support from the Israeli public, which polls show strongly support his plan.

"I call on the people of Israel to unite in this fateful moment, to allow us ... to erect a dam against the hatred among us," he said.

Sharon said he made the decision with a heavy heart.

"During my life as a fighter, as a commander, as a politician, as a member of parliament, as a minister in Israeli governments, and as the prime minister I have never known anything so difficult," he said.

The program is a sharp reversal for the premier, once the settlers' top patron in the government.

The plan has sharply divided Sharon's own hard-line Likud party, with nearly half its 40 lawmakers saying they will vote against it. Sharon will need to rely on the support of dovish opposition parties.

Regardless, Sharon's allies say he should get at least 65 votes -- and possibly as many as 70 -- in the 120-member Knesset.

A victory Tuesday does not ensure that Sharon's plan will be adopted. Parliament and the Cabinet will have to vote at least once more -- and perhaps several more times -- to approve actual evacuations, and Sharon's government could fall on other issues, including the budget, before the plan is implemented.

On Sunday, Israel's Cabinet approved a key element of Sharon's plan, a bill detailing compensation for the 8,800 settlers in Gaza and four West Bank communities who would be removed from their homes.

Settler families would be paid $200,000-$350,000 in compensation. Sharon hopes settlers will accept cash advances -- which could total up to one-third of the final compensation payout -- to leave well ahead of the official evacuation, heading off confrontations between settlers and troops.

The Cabinet also approved penalties, including prison terms, for those resisting. The guidelines will be turned into a bill and sent to parliament.

Overnight, scores of Israeli armored vehicles moved into the Khan Younis refugee camp in southern Gaza in an operation the army said was sparked by recent mortar attacks on nearby Israeli settlements.

The raid, punctuated by repeated airstrikes and the firing of tank shells, killed 14 Palestinians, doctors said. (Full story)

If you care about this one bit, hope this pass's...

[bohemianfey]

I do hope this passes. We're all tired of the fighting and violence surrounding this situation.

[Ace Pace]

I love channel 10, it basicly showed every single person watching it, why theres NO additional danger outside of the north sector of increased terror, but actully better defense against terror, they also smacked down the Suicide bomber threat.

*hugs channel 10 guy who's hot*

[The Kernel]

Is anyone else astonished that Sharon is the last, best hope for peace for Israel? I don't know whether to be afraid or hope for the best.

[Ace Pace]

Is anyone else astonished that Sharon is the last, best hope for peace for Israel? I don't know whether to be afraid or hope for the best.

Hope for the best, the majority is fluctoating from 2-6 votes.
Lines are on religion, not left and right, for a change.

Damn awesome speachs all today.

[Ace Pace]

Heads are rolling, probebly the education minister and the finance minister, both high-ups in the Likud.


Okey, those who wanted a change in Israel, your getting it, for the good, and for the bad.

[Master of Ossus]

linky

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made a final break with his former allies in the Jewish settler movement, appealing to parliament to approve a withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank in a historic vote Tuesday.

The plan would mark the first time Israel has pulled down Jewish settlements in the West Bank or Gaza. It has bitterly divided the nation, and solidified Sharon's transformation from longtime patron of the Jewish settlers to their No. 1 nemesis.

Sharon opened a stormy two-day debate in parliament Monday, defending his plan as the only way to secure Israel's future.

"This is a fateful moment for Israel. We are dealing with a difficult decision that has few parallels," he said in a speech repeatedly interrupted by heckling from hard-line opponents.

"We have to do this, despite all the suffering involved," Sharon said. "This will decrease hostility, and will lead us forward on the path to peace with the Palestinians."

Israeli commentators said Sharon's speech was remarkable, both for his gestures toward the Palestinians and his unprecedented criticism of settlers, whom he accused of suffering from a "messianic" complex.

"Even if tomorrow morning Ariel Sharon resigns from his position, or is deposed, or recants, this earthquake has already occurred. The rift has taken place. Nothing will ever be the same," wrote Ben Caspit in the Maariv daily.

Tuesday's vote is the climax of a months-long confrontation over Sharon's "unilateral disengagement" plan, which has torn apart Sharon's Likud Party and weakened his coalition government.

Sharon was expected to win, but only with the help of dovish opposition parties. Nearly half of Likud's 40 lawmakers said they would vote against him, and two religious parties that Sharon has courted -- Shas and United Torah Judaism -- also have come out against the plan.

Sharon had hoped for a strong victory to silence opponents' demand to hold a national referendum on the plan. Sharon opposes a referendum, which would take months to prepare, as a stalling tactic.

Sharon is counting on at least 65 votes in the 120-member Knesset, with at least 48 lawmakers expected to vote against the plan.

The vote is only the first of several required before the plan can be implemented next year. Sharon's shaky government remains in danger of falling because of other issues, including the budget.

Still, the vote would mark the first time an Israeli parliament has approved the dismantling of Jewish settlements in Gaza or the West Bank. Opinion polls show a solid majority of the public supports Sharon.

Sharon's plan, which includes a total evacuation from Gaza and pulling down four small West Bank settlements, marks a dramatic transformation for the man who spent decades leading the effort to build up the settlements. As recently as early 2003, Sharon said the Gaza settlements were an essential part of Israel.

But after four years of devastating violence in the region, Sharon believes the continued occupation of Gaza -- where 8,200 Jewish settlers live amid 1.3 million Palestinians -- is untenable.

Sharon said his plan would boost Israel's security and help ensure the country's identity as a Jewish democracy. Sharon also believes it will blunt international criticism of Israel and strengthen its hold over large parts of the West Bank and east Jerusalem -- lands the Palestinians claim for a state.

Jewish settlers and hard-line lawmakers accuse Sharon of caving in to Palestinian violence and fear the withdrawal will be the first step in a larger pullback.

Sharon told the parliament Monday that supporting the withdrawal, which will uproot 8,800 settlers, was the most difficult decision of his long career.

"I know the significance of the Knesset's decision for thousands of Israelis who have lived for many years in the Gaza Strip, who were sent there in the name of Israeli governments, and built their homes there," he said. "I know this well. I sent many."

However, Israel does not want to rule over millions of Palestinians. He suggested the settlers were unreasonable in their opposition. Quoting late Prime Minister Menachem Begin, he said they were suffering from a "messianic complex."

Sharon even made some conciliatory remarks toward the Palestinians, expressing regret for the plight of refugees displaced by fighting with Israel.

"This is the way of war. However, war is not inevitable and predestined," he said. "Even today, we regret the loss of innocent lives in your midst. Our way is not one of intentional killing."

Many of Sharon's former allies felt betrayed.

Sharon "is the architect and the originator of the settlement enterprise. So to talk like this to the people he sent, there's a name for it. It's a kind of treason," said Effie Eitam of the National Religious Party.

On Tuesday, several thousand settlers and their supporters gathered for an anti-Sharon demonstration in a park outside the Knesset. Hundreds of police were stationed outside the building.

Many of the protesters were children from settlements.

"I came to tell the people of Israel this is our land and this is my house and no power on Earth can move me from it," said David Pinipnta, a 31-year-old resident of the Gaza settlement of Neve Dekalim.

Thousands of Sharon supporters demonstrated outside the Knesset on Monday night, singing songs, waving Israeli flags and holding signs reading "leaving settlements -- a choice for life."

Say what you will about Sharon, but he's getting shit done.

[Ace Pace]

And it passed, 68-44 IIRC, with even the ministers I mentioned backing down and voting for it.

Sharon gets his shit done.

Okey, political fallout is that the major right-wing group Likud splits, between Sharon and Bibbi, however Bibbi might stay on for a while, to keep his job.

Any comments from denzines?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Sharon is now the moderate in Isreal fighting a wave of religious idiots?

[Darth Wong]

Sharon is now the moderate in Isreal fighting a wave of religious idiots?

No, he's thinking in terms of military strategy. The patchwork of settlements in the occupied territories are a nightmare for Israeli security forces to protect. By pulling back, consolidating his military and police forces along a coherent border, and creating a defensible border, he hopes to enhance Israeli security. It is a concession that the Israeli military is simply not up to the task of protecting Israel's formal territories while also protecting a scattered patchwork of settlements throughout the occupied territories.

[Col. Crackpot]

Is anyone else astonished that Sharon is the last, best hope for peace for Israel? I don't know whether to be afraid or hope for the best.

Only Nixon could go to China.

[tharkûn]

It is a concession that the Israeli military is simply not up to the task of protecting Israel's formal territories while also protecting a scattered patchwork of settlements throughout the occupied territories.

This is BS. The military has far more bodies than needed to secure the settlements and the formal territories. He is withdrawing, not because the IDF cannot "protect" both, but because the Israeli public doesn't WANT to protect both. This has everything to do with saving money and nothing to do with impotence. Gaza was already secured, inasmuch as the attacks there are almost exclusively by rocket now.

Sharon's plan is strategic, but it is not being undertaken because the IDF is unable to provide security. If that were the case the government would be toppling before you and haystack burning Bibi would be deposing Sharon.

Frankly though I think this is the most pragmatic path to peace that exists, pullout of as many of the far flung religious settlements as you can without the government imploding and then wall off the enitre border. A giant ugly fence is a helluvalot cheaper and more effective than sending in tanks and infantry.

[Darth Wong]

Sharon's plan is strategic, but it is not being undertaken because the IDF is unable to provide security.

And a lack of funding does not effectively translate into a lack of ability ... how? If they can't pay for it, then they can't do it. Don't be a pedantic dumbshit.

[Elfdart]

Before we give Aryan Sharon the Nobel Prize, let's keep in mind that he's only giving up the most isolated squatters. He's still committed to piecemeal ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from a Greater Israel. He'll continue bulldozing Palestinian homes and American college girls, so all but the most demented Likudniks and Kahanists are just playing hard to get.

[Plekhanov]

Frankly though I think this is the most pragmatic path to peace that exists, pullout of as many of the far flung religious settlements as you can without the government imploding and then wall off the enitre border. A giant ugly fence is a helluvalot cheaper and more effective than sending in tanks and infantry.

And just where is this border you speak of? Why deep inside the occupied west bank of course, don’t forget that pulling the 8000 settlers out of Gaza (whilst still retaining control of the borders, ports and airspace) is only half of Sharon’s plan the latter part of which includes the annexing and ethnic cleansing of large portions of the Westbank where Israel has 250,000 settlers. This isn’t a withdrawal plan it’s a landgrab.

[Ace Pace]

Before we give Aryan Sharon the Nobel Prize, let's keep in mind that he's only giving up the most isolated squatters. He's still committed to piecemeal ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from a Greater Israel. He'll continue bulldozing Palestinian homes and American college girls, so all but the most demented Likudniks and Kahanists are just playing hard to get.

Isolated squatters? have you even LOOKED at the plans? an entire sector, the entire Gaza strip, is getting taken out, established 'sub urbs' of thousends of people.

[tharkûn]

And a lack of funding does not effectively translate into a lack of ability ... how? If they can't pay for it, then they can't do it. Don't be a pedantic dumbshit.

It isn't that the IDF can't, but rather that they don't want to fund it. The IDF is funded by everyone in Israel, but a handful of fundies require tha majority of resources. Everybody else is not willing to subsidize their existence, and the only reason the settlers need to be pulled out is because left alone they will start bombing Palestinian school children. Counting on the average Palestinian jihadi to differentiate between the fundie settler terrorist and the average Israeli who abandoned the fundies is suicidal.

This vote is the expression of the majority's wish to stop devoting massive amounts of resources to the fundies.

If the electorate WANTED to continue shovelling more resources at the fundies and their settlements; it is perfectly possible for the IDF to maintain the old status quo.

Before we give Aryan Sharon the Nobel Prize, let's keep in mind that he's only giving up the most isolated squatters. He's still committed to piecemeal ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from a Greater Israel. He'll continue bulldozing Palestinian homes and American college girls, so all but the most demented Likudniks and Kahanists are just playing hard to get.

BS. Arabs make up about 20% of the electorate, Sharon would be commiting electoral suicide if he ever advocates ethnic cleansing. Most likely any territory Israel annexes will be offered the same deal as Jerusalem - offers of full citizenship in exchange for renouncing any other citizenship claim. It is even possible that those who choose not to renounce foreign allegiance will be given the permanent residency status that many East Jerusalem Palestinian residents enjoy.

I have yet to see Sharon revoke permant residency status from a single individual. Nowhere have I seen anything close to expulsion being put forth as an option.

Yes Sharon has his problems, but without him you can forget about even a rump Likud vote in favor of any type of pullout with a more dovish individual.

And just where is this border you speak of? Why deep inside the occupied west bank of course, don’t forget that pulling the 8000 settlers out of Gaza (whilst still retaining control of the borders, ports and airspace) is only half of Sharon’s plan the latter part of which includes the annexing and ethnic cleansing of large portions of the Westbank where Israel has 250,000 settlers. This isn’t a withdrawal plan it’s a landgrab.

So? How would any of that change the fact that bitchslapping the hardcore fundies and creating a physical barrier to terrorism is a MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT from the status quo?

Even if we end up with Israel annexing everything inside the fence it is still bloody better than having a suicide bomber walking into a pizzeria and killing multiple families and the inevitable retaliation. I'm sorry but the line along which the Arab armies stopped getting their asses kicked in 1949 isn't all that magically important to me. If violating that line is the only feasible way ANY type of withdrawal can make it through the Knesset, then let the damn line be violated.

Waiting until the Knesset has the votes to go back to the green line is futile; the fundies are breeding like rabbits, continued Palestinian attacks drive Israelis to hawkish policy, and secularists are emigrating disproportionately. As time goes by it gets progressively harder to disengage. Either take what is electorally possible now, or piss and moan as less and less is electorally possible as time goes by.

[Ace Pace]

Tharkun, you nearly hit it on the head, except you miss the fact there is a SUBSTANTIAL majority who are NOT fundie, who are willing to fund the IDF to continue the status quo.