HUZZAH Maryland! Stab the antigun scum in the heart!

[MKSheppard]

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41533

CCRKBA Says Maryland Report on Ballistic Imaging Shatters Gun Tracking Myths

1/11/2005 3:00:00 PM

To: National Desk

Contact: Alan Gottlieb or Joe Waldron, 425-454-4911, both of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

BELLEVUE, Wash., Jan. 11 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A report by the Maryland State Police that recommends repeal of a law requiring collection of ballistic imaging information "shatters one of the favorite myths of gun control extremists," the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) said today.

In its progress report on the Integrated Ballistics Identification System (IBIS), the Maryland State Police Forensic Sciences Division recommends that "this program be suspended, a repeal of the collection of cartridge cases from current law be enacted and the Laboratory Technicians associated with the program be transferred to the DNA database unit." So far, Maryland has spent $2.5 million over the past four years, with nothing to show for it. The report admitted, "Guns found to be used in the commission of crime...are not the ones being entered into" the system.

"Our congratulations to Gov. Robert Ehrlich's administration for having released this information," said CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron. "Since the Maryland research also reveals that the same program in New York State has produced not a single trace that has led to the solution of a crime, we think Gov. George Pataki ought to consider scrapping the Empire State's program as well, saving taxpayers there about $4 million dollars annually."

Laws in New York and Maryland require that a fired cartridge case from each handgun sold in the state be provided for entry into the respective state's IBIS database. Extremist gun control groups supported this requirement because it amounts to a de facto gun registry in the guise of a crime-fighting tool.

"By admission of the Maryland State Police, ballistic imaging doesn't work, and appears to be a waste of money," said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb. "Technicians with the California Department of Justice said as much two years ago. The Citizen's Committee and other gun rights groups have been saying all along that ballistic imaging was a fraud as a crime-prevention tool, and now it's also being proven as an ineffective crime-solving tool.

"Taxpayers in every state have a right to know about the Maryland report," Gottlieb stated, "because gun control zealots have pushed similar programs in many state legislatures. Taxpayers expect to have their money wisely spent on genuine anti-crime measures, not some boondoggle that amounts to gun registration by another name."

[Glocksman]

I've known for a long time that so-called 'ballistic fingerprinting' is a load of horseshit.
It's nice to see that Maryland's State Police have joined the California DOJ in declaring it so.

[Zed Snardbody]

Is that the process that compares shell cassings to one another and apparently the hammer strike for each gun is diffrent?

Or the one where they compare wear on the bullet after firing?

To much law and order, I can't keep all the forensic shit straight.

[Atlan]

Is that the process that compares shell cassings to one another and apparently the hammer strike for each gun is diffrent?

Or the one where they compare wear on the bullet after firing?

To much law and order, I can't keep all the forensic shit straight.

Both really, although I don't know the exact details of the "fingerprinting" being discussed.
What I DO know is that every gun undergoes wear and tear as it is shot, so it's "fingerprint" changes over time. When the police makes a case using rifling wear on a bullet it is mostly from a weapon that hasn't been used much after the crime. Fire a gun enough after a shooting and the rifling patterns change, just as the striker shape changes.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Both really, although I don't know the exact details of the "fingerprinting" being discussed.
What I DO know is that every gun undergoes wear and tear as it is shot, so it's "fingerprint" changes over time. When the police makes a case using rifling wear on a bullet it is mostly from a weapon that hasn't been used much after the crime. Fire a gun enough after a shooting and the rifling patterns change, just as the striker shape changes.

I've regularly shot on the order of 500 rounds in a single day, and could see how ridiculously easy it would be to throw off the police if you used a gun in a crime and then went out target shooting the next day with a bunch of ammo.

[Coyote]

I've known for a long time that so-called 'ballistic fingerprinting' is a load of horseshit.
It's nice to see that Maryland's State Police have joined the California DOJ in declaring it so.

CALIFORNIA struck down a pro-gun-control platform?

(clutches heart, falls to ground, flops like a fish and is still)

When will the surprises from the People Demokratik Republik ever cease?

[Glocksman]

California didn't strike it down, but a report from their DOJ commissioned studies (buried by their antigun AG until he was forced to release them, btw) concluded that it wasn't feasible given the state of current technology and the ease with which markings can be altered either deliberately or through simple use.

[Beowulf]

Both really, although I don't know the exact details of the "fingerprinting" being discussed.
What I DO know is that every gun undergoes wear and tear as it is shot, so it's "fingerprint" changes over time. When the police makes a case using rifling wear on a bullet it is mostly from a weapon that hasn't been used much after the crime. Fire a gun enough after a shooting and the rifling patterns change, just as the striker shape changes.

I've regularly shot on the order of 500 rounds in a single day, and could see how ridiculously easy it would be to throw off the police if you used a gun in a crime and then went out target shooting the next day with a bunch of ammo.

There's also just changing the barrel, and discarding the old one. Instantly makes the ballistic fingerprint worthless.

[weemadando]

So the argument isn't that ballistic fingerprinting is inherently inaccurate and thus flawed, but rather, that it is easily avoided by those who understand its intricacies?

How is this different to normal fingerprinting where if a criminal has 2 neurons to rub together can wear gloves and thus avoid leaving conventional fingerprint evidence?

It seems that there is no real problem with the actual process, but more with its occassional over-zealous implementation.

[Ma Deuce]

Wee, the "ballistic fingerprinting" we are talking about is not the forensic method of matching guns to crimes via the marks left on the bullets and casings (and these are effective so long as the gun isn't used much or at all after the crime in question), but rather the idea of making it manditory for every new gun bought to be be test fired so that the marks it leaves on the bullet and casings can be recorded and put on a database: but as has already been mentioned, wear and tear on the barrel and striker from normal use can render that "fingerprint" obsolete.

The problem Maryland had with the system was that almost none of the guns used in crimes could be matched to guns in the database...

[Petrosjko]

When the majority of criminals acquire their firearms illegally, such schemes are easily rendered moot, Ando. It's a waste of money and time, at best.

[Coyote]

Also, a person who obtains a 'fingerprinted' gun for a crime can simply run a brush through it beforehand, use it in crime, then run a brush through it again...

It would be like a criminal being able to change actual fingerprints before, and then after, a crime. So it is just another layer of burden on law enforcement's shoulders-- tying them down with more administrative procedure instead of letting them go out and round up criminals.

[Chmee]

Also, a person who obtains a 'fingerprinted' gun for a crime can simply run a brush through it beforehand, use it in crime, then run a brush through it again...

It would be like a criminal being able to change actual fingerprints before, and then after, a crime. So it is just another layer of burden on law enforcement's shoulders-- tying them down with more administrative procedure instead of letting them go out and round up criminals.

Well, if this were a reliable method of forensically tracing firearms used in crimes, I doubt you'd find a law enforcement agency that looked at it as 'administrative procedure' ... the problem is, it's not very reliable.

They just need to apply the same sentencing guidelines used on crack dealers and possessors to illegal possessors and dealers of guns ... same mandatory sentencing guidelines.

'Hey, that's 24 ounces of Glock you sold, pal .... '

[Coyote]

Well, if this were a reliable method of forensically tracing firearms used in crimes, I doubt you'd find a law enforcement agency that looked at it as 'administrative procedure' ... the problem is, it's not very reliable.

Well.... yes. The thing is, if some advocacy group successfully rallied a bill saying that the police must spend at least two hours a week in a seance to channel the spirit world as a crime-fighting tool, it doesn't matter if it was bullshit or not, they'd have to do it if it became part of their procedure.

This ballistic fingerprinting is about as effective. Hell, a seance may actually be more helpful.

[Glocksman]

In other gun news, the Brady Campaign has released their annual report cards on the laws in the 50 states.
Ironically enough, Kentucky gets an 'F' from the Bradys despite its below average 4.77 homicide rate while Maryland gets an 'A-' and a so-called 'Sensible Safety Star' despite its above average homicide rate of 9.91.
Also, New Hampshire gets a 'D-' (0.71 homicide rate) while New York gets a 'B+' (4.86 homicide rate).
Of course there are other states on the list with Brady-approved laws that do have low rates, just like there are states on the list that get an 'F' and have fairly high homicide rates.

The only thing the Brady list is good for is proving that there is no correlation between homicide rates and gun laws in the US.

[Chmee]

In other gun news, the Brady Campaign has released their annual report cards on the laws in the 50 states.
Ironically enough, Kentucky gets an 'F' from the Bradys despite its below average 4.77 homicide rate while Maryland gets an 'A-' and a so-called 'Sensible Safety Star' despite its above average homicide rate of 9.91.
Also, New Hampshire gets a 'D-' (0.71 homicide rate) while New York gets a 'B+' (4.86 homicide rate).
Of course there are other states on the list with Brady-approved laws that do have low rates, just like there are states on the list that get an 'F' and have fairly high homicide rates.

The only thing the Brady list is good for is proving that there is no correlation between homicide rates and gun laws in the US.

Now now G, put those herring back in the cooler .... they don't seem to be grading on homicide rates (or if it's in the formula, it looks like an amazingly small part) .... don't argue with them about something they AGREE with you on.

[Glocksman]

What herring?

Michael Barnes stated this:

"A minority of American states have behaved as role models the rest of America should follow - and there's a pretty clear pattern that states that have taken affirmative steps to prevent gun violence have seen fewer gun deaths as a result," said Michael Barnes, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and Million Mom March. "Sensible gun laws really do save lives."

The WISQARS homicide data disproves that in regards to Maryland.

Like I said, the only thing the Brady card proves is that the relationship between homicide rates and gun laws is practically nonexistent.

You know as well as I do that socioeconomic factors play the primary role.

[Chmee]

What herring?

Michael Barnes stated this:

"A minority of American states have behaved as role models the rest of America should follow - and there's a pretty clear pattern that states that have taken affirmative steps to prevent gun violence have seen fewer gun deaths as a result," said Michael Barnes, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and Million Mom March. "Sensible gun laws really do save lives."

The WISQARS homicide data disproves that in regards to Maryland.

Like I said, the only thing the Brady card proves is that the relationship between homicide rates and gun laws is practically nonexistent.

You know as well as I do that socioeconomic factors play the primary role.

I missed the source, was Barnes' comment in any way related to the grading? He also had either a very poorly or cleverly constructed sentence, mixing together 'gun violence' and 'gun deaths' ... 'gun deaths' would include a lot of territory not including homicides.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I've known for a long time that so-called 'ballistic fingerprinting' is a load of horseshit.
It's nice to see that Maryland's State Police have joined the California DOJ in declaring it so.

lol, now let's see our politicians learn.

also that post along with your sig makes the irony factor go up.

[Petrosjko]

I missed the source, was Barnes' comment in any way related to the grading? He also had either a very poorly or cleverly constructed sentence, mixing together 'gun violence' and 'gun deaths' ... 'gun deaths' would include a lot of territory not including homicides.

This is the Brady Campaign. Mealy-mouthed wordplay is their stock in trade.

[Chmee]

I missed the source, was Barnes' comment in any way related to the grading? He also had either a very poorly or cleverly constructed sentence, mixing together 'gun violence' and 'gun deaths' ... 'gun deaths' would include a lot of territory not including homicides.

This is the Brady Campaign. Mealy-mouthed wordplay is their stock in trade.

There's enough hyperbolic bullshit on both sides to go around, I'm a lot happier in a moderate position. If I have to take shit from both the extreme left and extreme right, I have no problem with that.

[Glocksman]

Barnes's comment was in the press release accompanying the 'report card'.

Brady Press Release

Washington, D.C. - Thirty-one states get a "D" or an "F" in measurements of the gun laws in those states, according to nationwide ratings released today by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence united with the Million Mom March in partnership with state-based gun violence prevention organizations across the nation.

In the eighth year of the release of the grades, only three states actually changed grades, two for the worse and one for the better. But a number of states strengthened laws linking guns and domestic violence, and others defeated the most extreme concealed weapons proposals such as allowing concealed guns in bars and schools. Overall, there is concern gun violence in some states could increase in 2005 because Congress failed to renew the federal assault weapon ban, which expired last fall, and many states with reasonable laws border on states that lack restrictions on assault weapons.

The states that saw a grading change include Indiana, whose score improved from a "D-" to a "D" because the state defeated a gun lobby effort to overturn a recent Supreme Court decision holding that gun owners can be held responsible for negligently leaving guns accessible to children and other improper users; Ohio, which saw its grade fall from a "D+" to a "D-" because the state passed a dangerous new law that forces police to let almost anyone carry hidden handguns in public; and South Carolina, whose grade fell from a "C-" to a "D+" because the state repealed the one-handgun-per-month law that had helped stop gun-trafficking.

Each state was carefully rated on seven types of legislation that protect children from gun violence, with extra credit or demerits awarded for additional relevant legislation.

Juvenile Possession of Guns - Is it illegal for a child to possess a gun without supervision?
Sale/Transfer of Guns to Juveniles - Is it illegal to sell a gun to a child?
Safe Storage and Gun Owner Accountability - Are gun owners held responsible for leaving loaded guns easily accessible to children?
Childproof Guns and Gun Design Safety - Are guns required to have child-safety locks, loaded-chamber indicators and other childproof designs? Are there restrictions on unsafe Saturday night specials?
Preemption - Do cities and counties have authority to enact local gun laws?
Secondary "Private" Gun Sale Background Checks - Are background checks required at gun shows and between "private" parties?
Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) - Is it legal to carry concealed handguns in public?
"A minority of American states have behaved as role models the rest of America should follow - and there's a pretty clear pattern that states that have taken affirmative steps to prevent gun violence have seen fewer gun deaths as a result," said Michael Barnes, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and Million Mom March. "Sensible gun laws really do save lives."

Only six states received an "A." Not surprisingly, most poorly graded states have suffered child and teen firearm death rates that are significantly higher than those that received an "A" rating.

Since the Brady Campaign began grading state gun laws eight years ago, the number of young people killed by guns nationwide has dropped from an average of 16 per day to eight (based on the most recent available data). During the same period, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reported a 48 percent reduction in the firearms death rate per 100,000 children and teens. Despite these improvements, the CDC reports that there are still, on average, more than 40 children and teens killed or injured by firearms in this country every single day.

"We have made some progress as a nation, with certain states leading the way, but there are many, many miles yet to travel," said Sarah Brady, Chair of the Brady Campaign and Million Mom March, whose husband Jim was critically wounded in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan.

For specific reports for all 50 states, please visit the Brady Campaign web site at www.bradycampaign.org.

Note the cute way they mix 'children' and 'teens' together.

If you break it down by race, again, blacks are far ahead in terms of rate than the rest of the country. This leads me to believe that its not a gun law problem but a cultural, educational, and economic problem.

Addressing the pathologies that are affecting blacks with gun control is similiar to treating cancer with Asprin and band-aids when chemotherapy is the indicated treatment.

[Glocksman]

Oh yeah. I'm very disappointed that my state improved its grade.
We'll have to see if we can get an 'F' or 'F-' in this session of the legislature.

[Chmee]

Well, I looked at those categories (thanks for the quote, G) and I'll tell you where my self-described moderate status lines up with the Brady folk:

Juvenile Possession of Guns - Is it illegal for a child to possess a gun without supervision?

No-brainer.

Sale/Transfer of Guns to Juveniles - Is it illegal to sell a gun to a child?

No-brainer

Safe Storage and Gun Owner Accountability - Are gun owners held responsible for leaving loaded guns easily accessible to children?

Not only a no-brainer, but you would have to EXEMPT guns from existing tort law for this not to be the case.

Childproof Guns and Gun Design Safety - Are guns required to have child-safety locks, loaded-chamber indicators and other childproof designs? Are there restrictions on unsafe Saturday night specials?

Too vague and general for me ... this basically asks for gun design to be driven by something besides efficiency at killing things, and that's a pipe dream. Safety will only be a design parameter so the gun owner avoids firing the weapon accidentally.

Preemption - Do cities and counties have authority to enact local gun laws?
Secondary "Private" Gun Sale Background Checks - Are background checks required at gun shows and between "private" parties?

I have no problem with reasonable background check requirements for anybody who is regularly profiting from gun sales, who is literally a 'dealer.' Applying it to a truly personal transaction between private non-commercial properties is too much of an enforcement nightmare to imagine. Hammer illegal dealers, it's a fucking felony, but that's enough.

Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) - Is it legal to carry concealed handguns in public?

One I'll never be on the same page with Brady folk about. I carry. There are places I don't carry. I'm fully in favor of businesses and institutions having the ability to enforce gun bans on their premises. But banning me from CCW as a blanket nationwide rule I can't go for.

[Glocksman]

Quote:

Juvenile Possession of Guns - Is it illegal for a child to possess a gun without supervision?

No-brainer.

Pretty much agreed.

Quote:
Sale/Transfer of Guns to Juveniles - Is it illegal to sell a gun to a child?
No-brainer.

Agreed, and already illegal under existing Federal statutes.

Quote:
Safe Storage and Gun Owner Accountability - Are gun owners held responsible for leaving loaded guns easily accessible to children?

Not only a no-brainer, but you would have to EXEMPT guns from existing tort law for this not to be the case.

It depends upon the wording of the law.
If by 'easily accessible' you mean leaving them unlocked in a drawer where kids that have a right to be in the house can get to them, then I agree.
If you want to hold someone whose home was burglarized by a 15 year old accountable because his gun was stolen from his home, then I disagree.

Preemption - Do cities and counties have authority to enact local gun laws?

Rights enumerated by the state constitution or legislature should trump local laws.
If I'm carrying under my state issued CCW, I shouldn't have to worry about unknowingly violating some bullshit ordnance passed in West Buttfuck, Indiana as a result of MMM pressure.

Secondary "Private" Gun Sale Background Checks - Are background checks required at gun shows and between "private" parties?

Like you said, an absolute nightmare to enforce with genuine occasional sellers, and engaging in gun sales as a business without a license and the attendant required checks is a federal offense.

Quote:

Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) - Is it legal to carry concealed handguns in public?


One I'll never be on the same page with Brady folk about. I carry. There are places I don't carry. I'm fully in favor of businesses and institutions having the ability to enforce gun bans on their premises. But banning me from CCW as a blanket nationwide rule I can't go for.

I'm of two minds on this issue.

On the one hand, private property is private property.
On the other hand, property owners are subject to all kinds of restrictions on what they can and cannot permit on their property.
Also in my state, the state supreme court has ruled that the right to bear arms is both a liberty and a property right protected under the state constitution.

Right now there's a suit going on in Oklahoma over a law they passed that prohibits businesses from banning firearms in vehicles parked in the business parking lot.