Jedi Mindtricks and Ethics

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-23 01:25pm

I watched the Clone Wars Vol. 1 DVD last night and in it there is a scene where Captain Typho was mindtricked by Yoda into agreeing to take him and Padme into danger. Padme laughed and there was a whole bunch of wink and nodding and Typo was confused.

Now is that TRULY funny? Would you laugh if some elite minority had the power to make you say and do something which you did not want to do in the first place?

In ANH the Jedi Mindtrick is used to save Luke and Ben from the stormtroopers. In ROTJ it is used to help Luke gain access to Jabba the Hutt and save his friends. Vader never uses the Jedi mindtrick in the OT that I'm aware of, even when it would make things easier like with Lando Calrissian.

However in the Prequels Jedi mindtricks are used to try and cheat people out of goods and services (Qui Gon and Watoo) steal a vessel (Qui Gon and Boss Nass) even Padme suggests that Anakin Jedi Mindtrick her alluding to the acceptance of that usage of the power by the Jedi against people.

Is this acceptance of the casual use of a power that usurps free will and the usage by the Jedi for such questionable motives or results make the Jedi evil on some level? Does it help during the purge that the Empire can point to the casual use of the mindtrick as a way to show how corrupt the Jedi had become.

Is it unethical to use a mind trick except for the greatest emergencies?

Hell they must have used it so much that it became common knowledge - It is referrred to as an "Old Jedi Mindtrick." by Jabba who recognizes the effects immediately and that was 20 years later after the Jedi were gone. During the prequel era people like Padme were very aware of its use.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-23 01:36pm

I've always maintained that the 'Mind Trick' was only a suggestion prompted inside the mind of the target by the Jedi. If the target was sufficiantly strong willed (or stubborn on their point), the trick wouldn't work. In that way the 'trick' didn't turn into mind rape/control, which I would associate more with the Dark Side.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-03-23 01:39pm

I'd guess that Vader was never seen using it because he preferred to terrify people into compliance, rather than resort to mind tricks.

Gorefiend · Post by **Gorefiend** » 2005-03-23 01:48pm

However in the Prequels Jedi mindtricks are used to try and cheat people out of goods and services (Qui Gon and Watoo) steal a vessel (Qui Gon and Boss Nass) even Padme suggests that Anakin Jedi Mindtrick her alluding to the acceptance of that usage of the power by the Jedi against people

Is this acceptance of the casual use of a power that usurps free will and the usage by the Jedi for such questionable motives or results make the Jedi evil on some level? Does it help during the purge that the Empire can point to the casual use of the mindtrick as a way to show how corrupt the Jedi had become.

Is it unethical to use a mind trick except for the greatest emergencies?

I agree with you’re their, but in general the jedi knights of the republic seem to be very lose in following their own rules, many seem to have had love relationships, they are often elitist and the separatists don’t have all that much trouble getting the natives of many planets to see them as mutants that serve as assassins and enforces to a corrupt and repressive republic. Plus they take young children away from their parents to mould them into new knights for their order. They just really don’t seem to have all to good a public image.

Hell they must have used it so much that it became common knowledge - It is referrred to as an "Old Jedi Mindtrick." by Jabba who recognizes the effects immediately and that was 20 years later after the Jedi were gone. During the prequel era people like Padme were very aware of its use.

Jabba lived during the jedi era, he was around 600 in rotj, and hutts often had to deal with jedi that went against their business interests, of course they would know about the abilities of jedis, plus luke actually tricks jabbas twilek aide to let him go to jabba. Hutts are very resistant against mind altering force powers, because they usually have very strong wills and have a certain natural immunity to jedi abilities.

Padme is a senator to the republic, of course see ought to know what kind of abilities jedi usually have, even if it is just from some wild tales.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-23 02:00pm

Crown wrote:I've always maintained that the 'Mind Trick' was only a suggestion prompted inside the mind of the target by the Jedi. If the target was sufficiantly strong willed (or stubborn on their point), the trick wouldn't work. In that way the 'trick' didn't turn into mind rape/control, which I would associate more with the Dark Side.

well in KOTOR it works that way (well in KOTOR2 there's power called "Mind Trick" but it's just game mechanics as since there's three power that fit movies description of the Jedi mind trick).

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-03-23 03:56pm

I agree, it seems unethical. No wonder that the Jedi Order had to be practically destroyed and the Force brought out of balance before that kind of Force use isn't seen again.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-03-23 05:55pm

Gorefiend wrote:Jabba lived during the jedi era, he was around 600 in rotj, and hutts often had to deal with jedi that went against their business interests, of course they would know about the abilities of jedis, plus luke actually tricks jabbas twilek aide to let him go to jabba. Hutts are very resistant against mind altering force powers, because they usually have very strong wills and have a certain natural immunity to jedi abilities.

In the RotJ novelization, Jabba says that mind tricks don't work on him because the Hutt brain is so different from the human brain. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy with me so I can't supply an exact quote.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2005-03-23 06:19pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:In the RotJ novelization, Jabba says that mind tricks don't work on him because the Hutt brain is so different from the human brain. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy with me so I can't supply an exact quote.

Would that mean then that a Hutt Jedi would be able to mind-trick another Hutt?

So Luke may not be able to mind-trick Jabba, but if it was an alien Jedi.

It's unethical even if it's only a suggestion that a strong-willed person can ignore. If someone is just weak-minded and gullible, doesn't mean it's okay to mind-trick them. The use of it for the greater good, whatever that means, can be somewhat justified, but it can be so easily abused and it's hard to say just what is acceptable usage in marginal cases.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-23 06:22pm

neoolong wrote:It's unethical even if it's only a suggestion that a strong-willed person can ignore. If someone is just weak-minded and gullible, doesn't mean it's okay to mind-trick them. The use of it for the greater good, whatever that means, can be somewhat justified, but it can be so easily abused and it's hard to say just what is acceptable usage in marginal cases.

That's why the easiest way get Dark side point, is to over use the "Force persude/dominate mind "skill.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-23 06:50pm

Perhaps Republic Law simply authorizes Jedi Knights to use "Mind Tricks" on suspects or assailants as part of their law enforcement duties.

It may not be that they're even required to get a "warrant" for each one, but like the "probably cause" exception to the "no unlawful search and seizure" thing with US cops.

It may be thus perfectly legal, though whether or not it is moral or ethical is another story.

In the case of the Prequels, one could argue that Watto is not being forced to do anything immoral or illegal. They're merely trying to get him to accept a unit of money that isn't worth anything (apparently) in his region, which is outside the Republic. I don't know if the Republic has some kind of "non-interferance" (Prime Directive) type protocol that would forbid him from doing it, and I am not going to argue that as a slave owner, Watto deserves to be screwed over, etc. But still. We could say that Qui Gon's mission - getting the Queen to safety and reporting the situation on Naboo to the Senate (after all the TF leaders tried to kill him & Obi-Wan and illegally invaded a planet, taking the leadership of that planet hostage) is more important than some junk dealer profiting off a sale. Still, having Qui Gon simply doing his "I hereby commandeer this vehicle part in the name of the Republic" routine destroys the drama and suspense that Lucas wanted to create that would lead them to discovering Anakin's powers, etc.

We've often asked why didn't Qui Gon simply threaten to kill Watto or force choke him or something to get what he wanted, and that's always been answered with "but he's not a Sith, it's out of character" so the above could have been an option instead, if not for the needs of storytelling. It's not like Watto was intimidating, and we have no evidence that he had mob protection or something.

The attitude shown towards the casual use of the Mind Trick in the Clone Wars series, I agree is rather cavalier, especially coming from someone as concerned with freedom as Padme (even if she is an impetous young woman) and somebody supposedly as wise and humble as Yoda.

The scene was played for laughs.

The whole notion of "Aliens with Force Proof Heads" always rubbed me the wrong way. The scene with Watto certainly IMPLIES that Lucas agrees with this notion. However it's possible that Watto simply is using blustering about racial pride to reinforce the fact that he's simply too strong willed to be tricked that easily, equivalent to him saying, "you can't trick me, I'm an Englishman!"

If we take his statement literally, we might be led to believe that not only are all Toydarians immune to Jedi Mind Tricks, but they're also all greedy ("...donna work on me, only money") and susceptable to bribes!

That the brain chemistry is just somehow different and that makes it not work is goofy, because we have lots of alien Jedi around. And if that was a obstacle, can't they just take some xeno-neurology courses and figure out a way to make it work?

I realize that the idea of "Force Proof Aliens" (Ysalamiri, Yuzang Vong, etc) is heavily reinforced in the EU, so as far as that's concerned it's no big deal. I still prefer a different explanation. Sorry to ramble on. ; p

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-03-23 10:44pm

It's completely and utterly loathesome when abused, and one can easily see how some knowledge or at least rumor of it among the populace at large would be another means by which Palps could create dissent against the Jedi.

Gorefiend · Post by **Gorefiend** » 2005-03-24 02:39am

don't know if the Republic has some kind of "non-interferance" (Prime Directive) type protocol that would forbid him from doing it, and I am not going to argue that as a slave owner, Watto deserves to be screwed over, etc. But still. We could say that Qui Gon's mission - getting the Queen to safety and reporting the situation on Naboo to the Senate (after all the TF leaders tried to kill him & Obi-Wan and illegally invaded a planet, taking the leadership of that planet hostage) is more important than some junk dealer profiting off a sale. Still, having Qui Gon simply doing his "I hereby commandeer this vehicle part in the name of the Republic" routine destroys the drama and suspense that Lucas wanted to create that would lead them to discovering Anakin's powers, etc.

they were in hutt space, slavery is legal their and watto would have just had a good laugh when some jedi came into his shop saying "I hereby commandeer this vehicle part in the name of the Republic", because the republic and with it jedi don’t have any jurisdiction in hutt space.

Would that mean then that a Hutt Jedi would be able to mind-trick another Hutt?

Would not think so in general they are just force resistant to a certain degree, at least according to the rpgs. Plus a very strong force user could in fact mind trick even force resistant races, after all it’s only a resistance not an immunity.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-03-24 02:45am

Watto may very well have had some Hutt protection that prevented the use of violence or intimidation. When he holds out after the race, Qui Gon mentions "taking it to the Hutts," which is enough to get Watto to honour his deal. The Hutts probably don't like anyone but themselves strong arming people and don't want anyone ruining the business climate in their domains. Adding to that, the blattant use of Jedi powers would probably attract unwelcome attention, which they wanted to avoid.

darthnidankendo · Post by **darthnidankendo** » 2005-03-24 01:20pm

if i had the force with me and able to use mind tricks to, it would only get used on women. So it would be a very, very unethical use of it.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-03-26 07:10pm

It's worth nothing that Qui-Gon wasn't trying to mind trick Watto into giving him the parts for free, but instead attempting to get him to accept Republic currency, that could conceivably be converted (although not conveniently) offworld into something usable.

Still, I suppose its a twisted sense of ethics that lets you try to fuck with someone's mind, but considers it totally wrong to bonk him on the head and make off with an armload of hyperdrive parts while chuckling to yourself. As opposed, of course, to engaging in an extended adventure involving a podrace and a lot of gambling.

Mr. T · Post by **Mr. T** » 2005-03-26 07:48pm

It is something that can be, and is abused in the movies. There really is not much difference between the jedi mind trick and a modern day con-man in terms of effect at least: They both trick weak minded people in to taking an action they would not ordinarily take. So I agree that it is quite unethical, and corrupt of the jedi. Those bastards

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-27 07:05am

Stravo wrote:steal a vessel (Qui Gon and Boss Nass)

I don't think that one worked. They still tried, but Nass seemed to pretty much shaft them. And, putting his being a gungan aside, I don't see why Nass would be weak minded enough for it to work.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-27 07:10am

Kurgan wrote:We've often asked why didn't Qui Gon simply threaten to kill Watto or force choke him or something to get what he wanted, and that's always been answered with "but he's not a Sith, it's out of character" so the above could have been an option instead, if not for the needs of storytelling. It's not like Watto was intimidating, and we have no evidence that he had mob protection or something.

The real question is why didn't he go next door, and mindtrick another junk dealer into changing his currency, and then go back to Watto.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-03-27 07:31am

Mind tricks seem to work easier when the person subconsciously agrees with the jedis suggestion.
Like Boss Nass got rid of Jar-Jar by putting him on the same boat with the jedi. No fuss or other fucking about. Out sight out of mind.

Watto on the other hand is a money grabbing SOB, who deals with con men and other scum on a daily basis.

Btw. I watched Fandom Menace yesterday again (it was on TV). Qui-Gon said when Amidala went to get help from the gungans, "We can't use our jedi powers". This implies that a) He wouldn't use jedi tricks to send gungans to war b) His power of persuasion is not that strong or c) both

I'd pick c

-Gunhead

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-03-27 12:23pm

NecronLord wrote:
Kurgan wrote:We've often asked why didn't Qui Gon simply threaten to kill Watto or force choke him or something to get what he wanted, and that's always been answered with "but he's not a Sith, it's out of character" so the above could have been an option instead, if not for the needs of storytelling. It's not like Watto was intimidating, and we have no evidence that he had mob protection or something.
The real question is why didn't he go next door, and mindtrick another junk dealer into changing his currency, and then go back to Watto.

Because the Force had its hand on his back, and it was pushing.

"THE BOY! LOOK AT THE BOY!"

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-27 12:49pm

Petrosjko wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Kurgan wrote:We've often asked why didn't Qui Gon simply threaten to kill Watto or force choke him or something to get what he wanted, and that's always been answered with "but he's not a Sith, it's out of character" so the above could have been an option instead, if not for the needs of storytelling. It's not like Watto was intimidating, and we have no evidence that he had mob protection or something.
The real question is why didn't he go next door, and mindtrick another junk dealer into changing his currency, and then go back to Watto.
Because the Force had its hand on his back, and it was pushing.

"THE BOY! LOOK AT THE BOY!"

I didn't realize the Force was a Catholic Priest.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-27 03:57pm

Gorefiend wrote:
don't know if the Republic has some kind of "non-interferance" (Prime Directive) type protocol that would forbid him from doing it, and I am not going to argue that as a slave owner, Watto deserves to be screwed over, etc. But still. We could say that Qui Gon's mission - getting the Queen to safety and reporting the situation on Naboo to the Senate (after all the TF leaders tried to kill him & Obi-Wan and illegally invaded a planet, taking the leadership of that planet hostage) is more important than some junk dealer profiting off a sale. Still, having Qui Gon simply doing his "I hereby commandeer this vehicle part in the name of the Republic" routine destroys the drama and suspense that Lucas wanted to create that would lead them to discovering Anakin's powers, etc.
they were in hutt space, slavery is legal their and watto would have just had a good laugh when some jedi came into his shop saying "I hereby commandeer this vehicle part in the name of the Republic", because the republic and with it jedi don’t have any jurisdiction in hutt space.

Would that mean then that a Hutt Jedi would be able to mind-trick another Hutt?
Would not think so in general they are just force resistant to a certain degree, at least according to the rpgs. Plus a very strong force user could in fact mind trick even force resistant races, after all it’s only a resistance not an immunity.

RPG = Game mechanics (and after the fact too).

At least the resistance idea is better than immunity though.

As to Watto laughing off the Jedi, that's precisely what he did with the Mind Trick. Qui Gon could have threatened him of course.

While it's unlikely that the Republic is going to go in with a peacekeeping force and force the Hutts to outlaw slavery, and maybe not impose sanctions to get Watto put out of business, he could easily have used his Jedi prowess to scare off customers or otherwise intimidate him. He's a Jedi!

Qui Gon's attitude of "we didn't come here to free slaves" (while true, implies he also has some kind of non-interferance thing going on) is fine, but he could always have thrown his weight around to get what he wants. He was all set to cheat Watto at the start with the Mind Trick, and he does cheat Watto later by ensuring the chance cube lands in Anakin's favor.

Does Watto have mob ties? I doubt it, because in AOTC he seems to be somewhat down on his luck. "Deadbeats" owe him money and he wishes a Jedi would help him get it back. Even in TPM he jokes about Qui Gon killing somebody he knows. If we knew he was well connected this would be a good reason why Qui Gon shouldn't try to mess with him.

It could be that since Qui Gon has money now, he could give them some $$$ in exchange for teaching Watto a lesson. After all, the despute was about their agreement with the slaves right? They'd already won the race.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-27 04:03pm

NecronLord wrote:
Kurgan wrote:We've often asked why didn't Qui Gon simply threaten to kill Watto or force choke him or something to get what he wanted, and that's always been answered with "but he's not a Sith, it's out of character" so the above could have been an option instead, if not for the needs of storytelling. It's not like Watto was intimidating, and we have no evidence that he had mob protection or something.
The real question is why didn't he go next door, and mindtrick another junk dealer into changing his currency, and then go back to Watto.

Too true!

Gorefiend · Post by **Gorefiend** » 2005-03-27 04:32pm

RPG = Game mechanics

Yes, they are of course, but only in the way they actually work in the rpg (I think it’s something like +6 rescue roll for the Hutt, if someone tries to use the force to screw with his/her mind, at least in the wotc rpg ), it doesn’t however mean that they are not force resistant to a degree.

The fact that Hutts were an Alien species semmed to have made it even harder for Luke to trick Jabba, or their strange brain structure might in fact be the reason for their force resistance. ;]

Jedi often seem to have trouble getting into the minds of races they don’t know, anyway. I don’t have the quotes at hand, but I think Luke has trouble reading and influencing Alien minds in the Thrawn Trilogy (when the Rodian and Barbel were getting at each other during a bar fight, if I am not completely mistaken), and somewhere in the Bakura Novel as well (with the lizards ;] ).

Jaina Solo in one of the NJO novels actually uses a force trick on a Toydarian (with quite some effort and only to get him to set a false set of jump coordinates), so it really does not seem to be a immunity, but just a resistance.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-03-27 04:47pm

Stravo wrote:
Petrosjko wrote:Because the Force had its hand on his back, and it was pushing.

"THE BOY! LOOK AT THE BOY!"
I didn't realize the Force was a Catholic Priest.

See, you'd know all about it if you were following the spoilers.

Man... BAD STRAVO.

*snickers*

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Jedi Mindtricks and Ethics

Jedi Mindtricks and Ethics

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