Vlad Taltos vs Rand al'Thor

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:04pm

The question is simple.

Can Vladimir Taltos, Jhereg assassin, take down Rand al'Thor?

Not necessarily in a straight-up fight; the operation can take as long as it needs to. In the end, can the Baronet Taltos somehow manage to assassinate the Dragon? Let's assume he, Kragar, Loiosh, and Rocca are all dumped in the middle of Cairhein, shortly after Jhereg and just before Winter's Heart.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:06pm

In that case, Rand should also have help from Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve, to make it fair.

Four on four, not four on one.

More likely it seems to be the Aes Sedai.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-23 08:07pm

I'm with Rand. Weave character shield, weave 20+ lightning weaves, Jhereg... dies.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-23 08:07pm

Probably not, acts of fate and balefire will combine to send Vald packing or into a shallow grave.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:15pm

In that case, Rand should also have help from Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve, to make it fair.

Four on four, not four on one.

More likely it seems to be the Aes Sedai.

Pick one. Kragar is Vlad's assistant, Loiosh is a small flying lizard who is psionically bound to Vlad and Rocca is Loiosh' mate.

Remember, this is not a straight-up fight. Vlad could take a job as a servant or something in whatever palace Rand is staying at, then teleport in at night and sever his spinal cord.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-23 08:16pm

Cyril wrote:
In that case, Rand should also have help from Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve, to make it fair.

Four on four, not four on one.

More likely it seems to be the Aes Sedai.
Pick one. Kragar is Vlad's assistant, Loiosh is a small flying lizard who is psionically bound to Vlad and Rocca is Loiosh' mate.

Remember, this is not a straight-up fight. Vlad could take a job as a servant or something in whatever palace Rand is staying at, then teleport in at night and sever his spinal cord.

Except The Pattern would never ever allow it to happen.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:18pm

Cyril wrote:
In that case, Rand should also have help from Egwene, Moiraine and Nynaeve, to make it fair.

Four on four, not four on one.

More likely it seems to be the Aes Sedai.
Pick one. Kragar is Vlad's assistant, Loiosh is a small flying lizard who is psionically bound to Vlad and Rocca is Loiosh' mate.

Remember, this is not a straight-up fight. Vlad could take a job as a servant or something in whatever palace Rand is staying at, then teleport in at night and sever his spinal cord.

In other words, you are going to do everything possible to make sure that Rand loses. Sounds a bit like cheating to me...

Anyways, Rocca and Loiosh don't count. We'll have Lan guarding Rand.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:20pm

Let's assume this is a mirror universe or something so the Pattern doesn't copout.

And, veri, Loiosh has to count. He's in Vlad's head. The link between the two cannot be broken. Rocca and Kragar, fine, but Vlad and Loiosh are linked by an unbreakable psionic connection.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:22pm

Cyril wrote:Let's assume this is a mirror universe or something so the Pattern doesn't copout.

And, veri, Loiosh has to count. He's in Vlad's head. The link between the two cannot be broken. Rocca and Kragar, fine, but Vlad and Loiosh are linked by an unbreakable psionic connection.

Psionic doesn't matter. If he is not physically doing anything, then he doesn't count. Again, you're manipulating the situation so Rand *has* to lose. And if one dies, the bond is broken, unless the physical state of one is what keeps the other alive. In which case, if the Pattern is out, the connection is out as well.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-23 08:23pm

Cyril wrote:Let's assume this is a mirror universe or something so the Pattern doesn't copout.

And, veri, Loiosh has to count. He's in Vlad's head. The link between the two cannot be broken. Rocca and Kragar, fine, but Vlad and Loiosh are linked by an unbreakable psionic connection.

Chances are good that he'd still kill him. Just set up some of the nifty kill wards. Show up when you're not supposed to and you're dead.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:24pm

WTF are you talking about? The Pattern is out because saying 'Oh, Rand can't die because the Pattern won't let it happen' is a cop-out. Vlad comes equipped with his familiar in the same way Mat comes equipped with his memories and Rand comes equipped with Lews Therin.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-11-23 08:24pm

Rand wins this one he does have the Far Desi Mei and the Ashsa Man helping to protect him .Also he can travel if need be and create a sword out of pure fire as well and he is a good swordsman

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:24pm

Also, shields of Air would be very useful. I'd like to see Vlad break through one of those.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-23 08:25pm

verilon wrote:
Cyril wrote:Let's assume this is a mirror universe or something so the Pattern doesn't copout.

And, veri, Loiosh has to count. He's in Vlad's head. The link between the two cannot be broken. Rocca and Kragar, fine, but Vlad and Loiosh are linked by an unbreakable psionic connection.
Psionic doesn't matter. If he is not physically doing anything, then he doesn't count. Again, you're manipulating the situation so Rand *has* to lose. And if one dies, the bond is broken, unless the physical state of one is what keeps the other alive. In which case, if the Pattern is out, the connection is out as well.

Well, who says Rand has to lose. Maybe he wakes up at the last moment just as watzisname is going to sever his spinal cord.

Plus, isn't Lan too busy being diddled by Nynaeve?

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:26pm

Cyril wrote:WTF are you talking about? The Pattern is out because saying 'Oh, Rand can't die because the Pattern won't let it happen' is a cop-out. Vlad comes equipped with his familiar in the same way Mat comes equipped with his memories and Rand comes equipped with Lews Therin.

First off, Rand can Teleport as well (thanks, Typhonus). Second, Vlad's familiar is a phyusical being. Rand's (lews Therin) is no more than a reincarnation, and Mat's as well. You are saying a reincarnation is equivalent to a physical being. Not so.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:27pm

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
verilon wrote:
Cyril wrote:Let's assume this is a mirror universe or something so the Pattern doesn't copout.

And, veri, Loiosh has to count. He's in Vlad's head. The link between the two cannot be broken. Rocca and Kragar, fine, but Vlad and Loiosh are linked by an unbreakable psionic connection.
Psionic doesn't matter. If he is not physically doing anything, then he doesn't count. Again, you're manipulating the situation so Rand *has* to lose. And if one dies, the bond is broken, unless the physical state of one is what keeps the other alive. In which case, if the Pattern is out, the connection is out as well.
Well, who says Rand has to lose. Maybe he wakes up at the last moment just as watzisname is going to sever his spinal cord.

Plus, isn't Lan too busy being diddled by Nynaeve?

Not funny. Let's assume that he and Nynaeve are together, but Lan's job is to protect Rand (meaning that Nynaeve assigned him to do so, and he cannot break that).

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:27pm

Vlad's familiar is a flying lizard the size of a cat. It's not super-unbalancing and it's part of his personality.

Rand's teleportation requires weaving a complex gateway and then stepping through it. Vlad thinks and it happens, instantly.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-23 08:28pm

Cyril wrote:WTF are you talking about? The Pattern is out because saying 'Oh, Rand can't die because the Pattern won't let it happen' is a cop-out.

When the universe is "in universe" trying to protect him it's not a cop out, it's a fact. I'm not talking about character shields, I'm talking about a given of the universe.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:29pm

Cyril wrote:Vlad's familiar is a flying lizard the size of a cat. It's not super-unbalancing and it's part of his personality.

Physical beings are physical beings. They do not equate to reincarnations. Stop trying to make them equal.

Rand's teleportation requires weaving a complex gateway and then stepping through it. Vlad thinks and it happens, instantly.

True. You have me on that one. But can Vlad Fly?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:31pm

-sigh-

I'm pitching Vlad and his familiar against the Dragon and whatever resources he has at his disposal - the Aiel, the Asha'man, etc. Loiosh is not an unbalancing factor.

No, Vlad can't fly, but IIRC, weaves of Air can't be used to make one fly either- Rand made some steps out of it to get onto a Sea Folk vessel, but I don' recall him ever flying.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:33pm

Cyril wrote:-sigh-

I'm pitching Vlad and his familiar against the Dragon and whatever resources he has at his disposal - the Aiel, the Asha'man, etc. Loiosh is not an unbalancing factor.

No, Vlad can't fly, but IIRC, weaves of Air can't be used to make one fly either- Rand made some steps out of it to get onto a Sea Folk vessel, but I don' recall him ever flying.

True, but he can tie off the weave so that Vlad in no way can get to him. And how is Vlad supposed to see the steps, anyhow?

And if Loiosh is not an unbalacing factor, how would Rand's resouces *not* be?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-23 08:37pm

Vlad is smart enough and streetwise enough to build up his own private organization in Cairhein or wherever he is. We must take this into account, too.

And, while Rand could encase himself in Air, he's rather stuck, and if he just builds up a lot of steps and snipes at Vlad, Vlad can hurl a barrage of sorceries.

But it probably wouldn't come down to a straight-out fight.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:38pm

Cyril wrote:Vlad is smart enough and streetwise enough to build up his own private organization in Cairhein or wherever he is. We must take this into account, too.

And, while Rand could encase himself in Air, he's rather stuck, and if he just builds up a lot of steps and snipes at Vlad, Vlad can hurl a barrage of sorceries.

But it probably wouldn't come down to a straight-out fight.

But if it did, Rand would probably win.

And although he may build up his forces in Cairhien, what are the chances that they'd stick with him, rather than think he is an uber-lord trying to play Daes Dae'Mar, the Game of Houses?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-11-23 08:41pm

Rand isnt limited to Carihein by Winters Heart either he could be in Tear ,Illian,Camelyn,or even Emonds Field.And Rand is bonded to a Green sister as her warder.And I`m not talking about Elayne Terkard either

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-11-23 08:44pm

*Trakand. And Cyril, if you wanted to make it that badass, you should have said Andor.

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