Fundie Logic, Aggression and Mindset (FLAM)

[Nephtys]

Okay, here goes. I've got a group of friends who amongst them, have one rather loony evangelical Christian I don't particularly care for. I made the mistake some time ago of telling her exactly how I felt on the matter of organized religion, and the actions of some groups of Christians in the US... and was that a mistake. She's told me how much of a 'secular lie' Evolution is, why Jesus turned her into a good person, and why she is a YEC. I then promptly refuted every single claim she made with those silly 'facts'. So then it came to this...

Her: "Laura, why don't you believe in God? Don't you want to go to heaven? Jesus died for you..."
Me: "Heaven? I don't see any reason to believe in Heaven over say.. Elysium... or Valhalla?"
Her: "Because Jesus died for you. He was the son of God."
Me: "So was Apollo. Point?"
Her: "Jesus loves you, that's why. You need to turn away from the Devil."
Me: "How do you know Jesus OR the Devil exists? We can't prove it or even observe a thing."
Her: "Of course they exist. You've been taught lies. Don't worry, I'll save you!"
Me: "You're full of it."
Her: "Come on! You need to accept Christ to be a good person!"

Et Cetera. Ad nasueum et infinitum.

So the questions. What do you peeps think?

1. Why are the converted so much more... em. Aggressive about their beliefs than others? I've had several experiences trying to fight off convert Christians, Jehovas, Mormons and even $cientologists.
2. Even though reason and faith seem to have an inverse relationship, how are 'Jesus died for you' and 'Don't you want to go to heaven' arguments in their minds?
3. Why the hell do they assume you already believe in God/Satan/etc, and are just denying it?
4. Where is the origin of this apparently quite common 'You need to love Jesus to be good' garbage?
5. How can anyone with half a mind just say 'Well, my beliefs are the utter, proven truth. The other religions are clearly commie lies.'

Anyone else have a recent encounter of these sorts?

[Dalton]

The answer to all of your questions is "Because the Bible says so". She's nothing more than a lost sheep.

[Darth Raptor]

There's no easy answer to your questions, if there is indeed a singular answer at all. As for why the converted are so much more aggressive than the merely indoctrinated:

I think it stems from the fact that many were living very, very shitty lives before their conversion. For most people, merely resolving to better yourself and your circumstances in kind of unbelievable without some sort of metaphysical epiphany. Their new lives have led them to believe that everything good in it is all because of Christianity and their previous shittiness was all because of their erstwhile fallen state. By attempting to convert those around you, they're hoping to add more credibility to their own faith by surrounding themselves with like minded comrades.

Additionally, any Christian who doesn't aggressively proselytize isn't taking their faith seriously. An aggressive preaching of the Gospel is undeniably one of the main tenants of the religion.

[salm]

1. Why are the converted so much more... em. Aggressive about their beliefs than others? I've had several experiences trying to fight off convert Christians, Jehovas, Mormons and even $cientologists.

That´s because first it´s something new to them, so they´re excited about it.
Second, converted people "used to think like you" and now they´ve "improved" themselves, so they know that it´s possible for you to do the same.

Anyone else have a recent encounter of these sorts?

Yes. You ignore them or tell them to fuck off.

[PainRack]

I try never to go that way........

However, listening to people say that "Jesus is the son of god. You know, no other religion state that their prophets are god, or related to go." and "I believe that all other religions are lies mADE BY THE DEVIL

[Surlethe]

1. Why are the converted so much more... em. Aggressive about their beliefs than others? I've had several experiences trying to fight off convert Christians, Jehovas, Mormons and even $cientologists.

They are motivated out of desire for your well-being as much as anything else. The good fundie sees, in effect, two yous. He sees your body and your spirit. To a fundie, they are both equally real: as real as, say, gravity, or air. The fundie then notes your spirit will survive after the physical you has died, will go meet God, be judged, etc., etc.

If you sinned during life, your spirit will go to hell. The fundie, motivated by the Biblically commanded "love your neighbor as yourself", wants only the best for you -- both your spirit and your body. He thus desires to convert you to fundamentalism because it is only through his fundie beliefs that your spirit (remember, the fundie is convinced you have a spirit which behaves in accordance with scriptures) will live forever in eternal bliss.

2. Even though reason and faith seem to have an inverse relationship, how are 'Jesus died for you' and 'Don't you want to go to heaven' arguments in their minds?

Fundie logic is as follows:

Jesus died for your sins + sinners go to hell --> People not saved by Jesus go to hell.

Hell is eternal torment + heaven is eternal bliss --> People should want to go to heaven. (remember, to them, heaven and hell are fact.)

Ergo, people should want to be saved by Jesus.

3. Why the hell do they assume you already believe in God/Satan/etc, and are just denying it?

Because they believe their beliefs are fact. Thus, to them, God/Satan/etc. are just as real as gravity. This leads to their thrusting their beliefs on other people -- the same way you would if someone walked around denying gravity, or denying air exists: "What the fuck!? How can you not believe it when it's so obviously right there?" etc.

Of course, that's not rational, but we're talking about belief here, so... .

4. Where is the origin of this apparently quite common 'You need to love Jesus to be good' garbage?

The Bible. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments", and other comments made by Jesus along those lines. The fundie basis for "goodness" is Biblical morality; thus, anyone who loves Jesus will be good. Most anyone who doesn't (and sees Biblical morality for what it really is) won't be good, which is probably why the fundies have gotten it backwards.

5. How can anyone with half a mind just say 'Well, my beliefs are the utter, proven truth. The other religions are clearly commie lies.'

They are absolutely convicted of the truth of their beliefs, and because of the nature of their beliefs, have built up a Wall of Ignorance. This completely takes destroys any vestiges of rationality.

Everything follows from the fundie's belief in the literal Bible, and the utter conviction of the reality of their beliefs. If you want to put yourself in their shoes (and I don't know why you would), then convince yourself that everything you belief is real, and not just belief. That's the basis of their worldview.

[Zero]

All of this crap is pretty simple. She's been converted, and now she feels much happier. She has some eternal parental figure that will watch out for her, and save her from any true form of death. She has no doubts because, essentially, subconsciously, she knows she's wrong, and if she admits doubt into her conscious mind, she'll lose her faith again, and feel alone and purposeless. The same is true of all fundies. If you adhere completely to a belief system and ignore all possible logic and science against it, it's because you don't want your subconscious doubts of the system to become conscious. You don't want to lose your religion, as it's a source of happiness, protection, and identity. The reason they likely converted was to cover up a weakness or lack before the conversion. They assume that you too feel a lack as well, and that they'd be helping you.

[Darth Wong]

Fundies were originally indoctrinated through sheer repetition of ideas in childhood. That's why they tend to keep spouting the same line at you over and over as an adult rather than addressing any kind of logic; it's the way they were "taught" when they were young.

[HemlockGrey]

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination? Simply using logical arguments doesn't work, since most fundies can't even grasp the concepts of logic and scientific reason. So how could you break through indoctrination best? Obviously, you can't do it over the internet, and it would probably require you to be on friendly terms with the person and see him or her on a regular basis.

[Lord Zentei]

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination? Simply using logical arguments doesn't work, since most fundies can't even grasp the concepts of logic and scientific reason. So how could you break through indoctrination best? Obviously, you can't do it over the internet, and it would probably require you to be on friendly terms with the person and see him or her on a regular basis.

Mencken's Maxim from friends and respected individuals, perhaps.

Over the internet the best that can be done is provide counter arguments and correct scientific information in the hopes of swaying those that are not too far gone and for planting the information that Mencken's Maxim needs to bear fruit.

[Enforcer Talen]

-shrugs- wong deconverted me, but Id been twitched for a while.

if the assumption is made that souls exist and your going to hell, *anything* is justified in stopping it. I would chase down girlfriends in an attempt to save their souls.

being pagans or agnostics as they were, you can imagine how that worked out

[Spyder]

One problem when dealing with converts is that misinformation is much better when it's passionate rather then logical. Take American propaganda vs Soviet Russian as an example. The Russians had various leaders giving lengthy speeches about why communism was the logical choice and why it was good for them, mostly it just bored a shitload of people. Now American propaganda on the other hand usually consists of some stars and stripes and throwing a bird across the screen set to a deep reverberating rendition of the American national anthem. For some odd reason people are then ready to do what they're told long before anyone's tried to convince them of anything.

[Zero]

Actually, if you present yourself to them in a reasonably friendly manner, and still try to explain to them why you think it's unreasonable to believe in any kind of God when there are so many different ones, and also point out that there's absolutely no realistic evidence for the existance of a diety, the doubt can actually build up in their minds slowly. Usually, they'll end up pretty fucked up when they leave religion behind, though. Having an emotional crutch all of your life and losing it can be quite an emotional pitfall. They might fall into a kind of depression in the search for something to fill the gap, to find an identity again. Sometimes, I figure it's just best to leave them alone, unless they use their faith to justify some kind of bigotry.

[Molyneux]

...The good fundie sees, in effect, two yous. He sees your body and your spirit. To a fundie, they are both equally real: as real as, say, gravity, or air. The fundie then notes your spirit will survive after the physical you has died, will go meet God, be judged, etc., etc...

"You see my body? You see my spirit? Now, do you see me flipping you off...twice?"

[SirNitram]

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination?

Plant the seed of doubt. The average convert will niggle at it endlessly once it's there.

Mind you, this is not a nice thing to do.

[Medic]

My best rationale.

1. Why are the converted so much more... em. Aggressive about their beliefs than others? I've had several experiences trying to fight off convert Christians, Jehovas, Mormons and even $cientologists.

This is something that I've just noticed about certain people, not necessarily Christian mind you, just an annoying personality... trait. I call it the "standard of me" and it's this: their life and their life experiences are The Standard and stuff outside their scope of reality is alien and shocking -- and wrong usually. We've all met them; they're the kind of people who experience culture shock and say shit like: "you've never had hash browns Brungardt? What country you grow up in again?"

Anyway, this type of person, having been converted from the bleak, depravity of secularism or whateverthefuck their miserable life story is, naturally sees this as the way things should be. It's worse when this type of person is Chrisitian because "saving" people i.e. actively going out and converting people is a huge thing.

2. Even though reason and faith seem to have an inverse relationship, how are 'Jesus died for you' and 'Don't you want to go to heaven' arguments in their minds?

What Dalton said.

3. Why the hell do they assume you already believe in God/Satan/etc, and are just denying it?

It was probably the case with them, refer to my first point. Like Mr. Wong pointed out in a recent thread in this forum, many atheists converting were probably Christian at some point.

4. Where is the origin of this apparently quite common 'You need to love Jesus to be good' garbage?

On one end of the role-model spectrum is Hitler and on the complete opposite stands Jesus. (and outside of this narrow spectrum lies Charles Barkley I suppose ) At least in American culture. Naturally, one should aspire to such ideals.

5. How can anyone with half a mind just say 'Well, my beliefs are the utter, proven truth. The other religions are clearly commie lies.'

IMO, an American problem, most of us are hardly exposed to other religions before the 7th grade (that's the California education standard so I imagine it can't be that different in most states) and the majority of Americans being Christian helps too. This nation is hardly secular, and the idea of God is always out in the public -- the pledge of allegiance, a President swearing in, saying "GD" or goddamnit all the time, crazy evangelicals competing with valuable infomercial time after hours and in the morning. It's at school, on TV and in your face.

So when the Bible rolls along, many people are utterly unable to refute the absolutism espoused in the bible. Blind, rote, and dogmatic preachers of the "Word of God" are the result.

[Spyder]

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination?

Plant the seed of doubt. The average convert will niggle at it endlessly once it's there.

Mind you, this is not a nice thing to do.

I probably wouldn't do it to someone that's emotionally unstable, it's a good way to turn someone into a raving psychotic...or more of one depending on the situation.

[spikenigma]

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination? Simply using logical arguments doesn't work, since most fundies can't even grasp the concepts of logic and scientific reason.

get them to the point where they'll question their own indoctrination I suppose.

but when you hear things like this:

Being Atheist requires that you have no morals. Nothing created you, and nothing you do matters. Thus being said you as an atheist do not believe in "good" or "bad."

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?p=2143423

your really have to wonder if some people are physcially capable of reason

[SirNitram]

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination?

Plant the seed of doubt. The average convert will niggle at it endlessly once it's there.

Mind you, this is not a nice thing to do.

I probably wouldn't do it to someone that's emotionally unstable, it's a good way to turn someone into a raving psychotic...or more of one depending on the situation.

Welcome to the issue. Converts can be swung back, but it involves shattering their pillar, removing, as it were, 'the right place to stand' for moving the world around. This makes people even more despondant and desperate, and quite possibly dangerous.

[Nephtys]

I probably wouldn't do it to someone that's emotionally unstable, it's a good way to turn someone into a raving psychotic...or more of one depending on the situation.

Welcome to the issue. Converts can be swung back, but it involves shattering their pillar, removing, as it were, 'the right place to stand' for moving the world around. This makes people even more despondant and desperate, and quite possibly dangerous.[/quote]

Shattering said pillar is quite tough, as you'd have to appeal to emotion more than reason. Something that logic and observation isn't too good at. I think I got this one fundie off of me for now, thank Goddess. But yes, people see what they want to see. Like us Atheists being goddless minions of immorality, or Hitler doing what he did because of Evolution... etc.

From my experience in dealing with these types now, they tend to deny anything bad Christianity does. I brought up the Crusades, and it's 'bringing love' to the midle east. Then Hitler, and he was of course, written off as an Atheist. Of course these characteristics don't apply only to crazier Christians. They just seem prominent in them, due to majority promoting this sort of nonsense.

[The Guid]

It strikes me as a little interesting that people here are talking about techniques for converting people away from God. Is it not as bad to try and seek people to see the world your way as it is to force them on to yours?

[Darth Wong]

It strikes me as a little interesting that people here are talking about techniques for converting people away from God. Is it not as bad to try and seek people to see the world your way as it is to force them on to yours?

Two points:

1) "Away from fundamentalism" is not the same as "Away from God".

2) There is a difference between indoctrination (which is what's done to Christians as children) and encouraging people to look at the world logically.

[SirNitram]

It strikes me as a little interesting that people here are talking about techniques for converting people away from God. Is it not as bad to try and seek people to see the world your way as it is to force them on to yours?

The method I brought up does not, in any way, lead someone to Deism and Humanism. Anyone looking at it would see that. It merely breaks down the indoctorined hold.

Unless, of course, you have some ridiculous idea about Deism and Humanism being the basic nature of humanity which we snap back to if we stray from 'God'. But of course, since you can't tell the difference between 'Stop indoctorine' and 'OMFG TURN THEM FROM GODS LIGHT', this perhaps isn't surprising.

[wolveraptor]

Nobody is forcing anyone's word on anyone. Hell, nobody here has the physical capability to do that. Unlike the Crusaders, we don't have a massive, slavering army blinded by fanaticism to crush all opposing viewpoints that exist on this earth.

[Junghalli]

1. Why are the converted so much more... em. Aggressive about their beliefs than others? I've had several experiences trying to fight off convert Christians, Jehovas, Mormons and even $cientologists.

They believe that they have become better people by converting. They see that you're just like they used to be. They think you will become a better person if you convert too. To make an analogy, imagine you're a reformed drug addict and you see somebody else getting daily tanked on heroin. Wouldn't you want to help them overcome their addiction? Pretty simple.

2. Even though reason and faith seem to have an inverse relationship, how are 'Jesus died for you' and 'Don't you want to go to heaven' arguments in their minds?

(1)Jesus died for you, the Bible says so.
(2)As far as they're concerned Heaven and Hell exist. People who believe in God will go to Heaven, those who don't will go to Hell. Arguing off these postulates you're being a big humanitarian by trying to convert people.

So what would be the best way to break this indoctrination?

Don't bother. Isn't this the same thing you're complaining about in the first place? Let them have their beliefs, and if they start bothering you about yours tell them to piss off.