Recusant destroyer vs. Dreadnaught cruiser

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2005-07-11 05:35pm

I'm curious to know just how the CIS ships from ROTS measure up to old EU warship. Can anyone speculate on the outcome of:

1) A single Recusant-class destroyer engages oneDreadnaught-class heavy cruiser in open space, without any fighters. The two ships approach each other head-to-head and are 500 km apart.

2) A single Recusant-class destroyer engages one Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser in open space, without any fighters. The two ships begin by broadsiding each other 10 km apart.

3) A single Recusant-class destroyer engages oneDreadnaught-class heavy cruiser in open space. The Recusant has 150 Vulture droids escorting, while the Dreadnaught has 36 Z-95 Headhunters. The ships and their escorts start 1,000 km apart from each other.

If it's too unbalanced, what would be the outcome with 1 Recusant vs. 2 Dreadnaughts in the above scenarios?

Just a reminder of each ship's stats:

Recusant-class light destroyer
Length: 1,187 meters
Weapons:
1 prow heavy turbolaser cannon; 4 heavy turbolaser cannons; 6 heavy turbolaser turrets; 5 turbolaser cannons; 30 dual laser cannons; 12 dual light laser cannons; 60 point-defense laser cannons
Max Acceleration: 2,800G
Reactor annihilates 8,600 tons of fuel per second

Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser
Length: 600 meters
Weapons:
10 turbolaser cannons, 20 quad turbolaser cannons, 10 turbolaser batteries
Max Acceleration: unkown, but said to be slow
Reactor is said to be inefficient

Adam Reynolds · Post by **Adam Reynolds** » 2005-07-11 08:49pm

my bet would be that the Dreadnaught loses, it's smaller, has less fighters(for 3) and is slower (for 1) from the fire power it appears that the Dreadnaught would die a slow and painful death.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2005-07-11 11:05pm

If Victory is any indication (~40k tons annihilated per second at peak power), Rendilli knows how to build a ship. The Recusant is a cheap as hell, overgunned, underpowered ship made to give new meaning to the mass in mass production. It may be over a klick but its skeletal design and general cost cutting measures mean that it gets hurt where it counts: the reactors. Providence is the Seperatists best ship of similar size to Venator and it still has around a third of the power plant of Venator or (more embarassingly, the 900 meter Victory.)

Dreadnaught is much smaller but has none of the compromises of the Recusant, its compact but sturdy instead of big and spindly. Dreadnaught, like Victory, is pure warship. Few concessions to fighters and troops and overall, very solid. In a fight without fighter support on either side, Recusant's open spaces between its outer and inner hulls is a vulnerability both in the potential reactor space it costs it and in the fragility that this means for the ship. Whether this translates into enough combat ability for Dreadnaught to overcome a ship much larger than itself I can't really say but I wouldn't say that this fight would be easy for either ship by a long shot.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-07-12 02:24am

I assume it's a stock Dreadnought, as the Rebellion's ANH era flagship, the New Hope was said to be so upgraded it could fight a Victory to a standstill. If it's the New Hope, the seperatist ship gets its ass violated.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2005-07-12 04:44pm

Yes, this is a stock Republic Dreadnaught.

My main concern is whether the Recusant's prow turbolaser would be able to shatter the Dreadnaught's weak shields and deliver a quick death blow.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2005-07-12 05:32pm

President Sharky wrote:Yes, this is a stock Republic Dreadnaught.

My main concern is whether the Recusant's prow turbolaser would be able to shatter the Dreadnaught's weak shields and deliver a quick death blow.

If we had a volume estimate on the Dreadnaught it would be easier, my geometry is just not good enough to estimate a Dreadnaught's volume relative to say a Vic. Which is a ship from the same company and also more or less, completely dedicated to space combat with its other roles being secondary.

The Seperatist fleet, or most of it, doesn't follow the same design philosophy as the Republican fleet. The Seperatists' ships weren't built with a galactic war in mind but rather 'settling accounts' with debtor organizations and planets. Dreadnaught while also predating the war, pretty much has to be a warship because it just isn't good at anything but smashing other ships to pieces. Not many troops, no fighters (the Empire and Rebels added this ability after the fact) and chunky rather than spindly.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-07-13 01:14am

According to the Thrawn Trilogy 3 Dreadnaughts can hold off an ISD and 6 should defeat one. According to the ROTS:ICS 4-5 Recusants can defeat a Vic or a Ven. ISD>VSD, so they are probably evenly matched and considering the Dread is more of a purpose-built warship the Dread can probably edge out the Rec if only just barely. Also, that prow TL takes a long time to charge so, if it isn't well on its way, the Dread should be able to take out the Rec before it has a chance to use it.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2005-07-13 01:44am

According to the Thrawn Trilogy 3 Dreadnaughts can hold off an ISD and 6 should defeat one.

Actually, I remembered reading that 3 Dreadnaughts can't hold down an ISD for long. And in the final battle in Dark Force Rising, I remembered the Judicator (or was it the Peremptory?) holding its own against all 6 of Bel Iblis' Dreadnaughts, as well as a NR Nebulon-B frigate, Rogue Squadron, and Talon Karrde's smuggler ships. When the 2nd ISD entered the battle, the heroes were scared shitless and were telling each other to get out while they still had a chance. It's been a long time, can anyone with the Thrawn books confirm whether this is true?

What I do know for sure is that an ISD can defeat 4 Assault Frigates (upgraded Dreadnaughts). Although Pellaeon was scared and unsure whether the Chimaera could take them, Thrawn proved it was possible. I don't remember any mention of the Chimaera taking serious damage, so it could even be inferred that this wasn't a difficult task for an ISD. As a side note, Pellaeon looks really wussy or overly cautious if this is true.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-07-13 02:37am

Separatist warships (as the ROTS:ICS demonstrateS) tend to make alot of compromises to their designs that true warships owuldn't (this is partly due to their mass-produced nature.) As poor a warship as the "dreadnaught" might be, its still a warship. Meaning more durable, and it can also divert nearly all of its reactor output into its heavy guns (the same is not neccesarily true of the Separatist ship.)

Power generation-wise, they're probably about the same (the Hutt Gambit novel implies that 3 Dreadnoughts and 4 bulk cruisers can BDZ Nar Shaddaa in under 15 minutes, and Dreadnaughts would provide far more firepower than the bulk Cruisers in such a case.) though I'd think the Dreadnaught might ave somewhat higher power generation.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-07-13 10:24am

Jim Raynor wrote:
According to the Thrawn Trilogy 3 Dreadnaughts can hold off an ISD and 6 should defeat one.
Actually, I remembered reading that 3 Dreadnaughts can't hold down an ISD for long. And in the final battle in Dark Force Rising, I remembered the Judicator (or was it the Peremptory?) holding its own against all 6 of Bel Iblis' Dreadnaughts, as well as a NR Nebulon-B frigate, Rogue Squadron, and Talon Karrde's smuggler ships. When the 2nd ISD entered the battle, the heroes were scared shitless and were telling each other to get out while they still had a chance. It's been a long time, can anyone with the Thrawn books confirm whether this is true?

Partialy. The Six dreadnaughts were in fact pounding the ISD to hell with no real problems against it. The Nebulon-B and three X-Wing squadrons had been busy killing off the ISD's fighter and assault craft. This was also a Zhan book so the Starfighters didn't even think of making an assault against a capital ship of course.

When the second ISD arrived three Dreadnaughts were shifted to hold it back, but against a fresh ISD Mara Jade thought to herself that even with a heavy bow ion cannons, they wouldn't be able to hold it off for long.

The second ISD was then killed by one of the katana fleet dreadnaughts ramming it. The ion cannon bombardment from the three dreadnaughts did however completly screw its engines so the ISD couldn't manouver clear.

One of the Dreadnaughts was damaged in the explosion. The other two started back to the first ISD, which promptly retreated.

So 5/6 Dreadnaughts > 1 ISD. 3 < ISD (marginaly, in both 3 v ISD engagements in the book the Dreadnaughts fought holding actions and survived handily to withdraw or re-engage). 4 Probably is marginaly greater. Five moderatly greater. And six is quite firmly in favour of the Dreadnaughts.

Though I note again, they were equiped with a heavy ion cannon that they used just about exclusivly.

What I do know for sure is that an ISD can defeat 4 Assault Frigates (upgraded Dreadnaughts). Although Pellaeon was scared and unsure whether the Chimaera could take them, Thrawn proved it was possible. I don't remember any mention of the Chimaera taking serious damage, so it could even be inferred that this wasn't a difficult task for an ISD. As a side note, Pellaeon looks really wussy or overly cautious if this is true.

Yes but Thrawn was commanding the taskforce and somehow was able to make their commander do absurdly stupid things that completly negated every single advantage the AF's and their fighters had. In fact I think the entire taskgroup was crewed with a certian species that simply couldn't hack the tactics Thrawn used and they basicly "cowerered in a corner" until he demolished them.

Seriously. It was four Assault Frigates and three WINGS of X-Wing fighters. THe X-Wings alone should have been able to pulvarise the Chimaera in the first pass. I mean IIRC the NR uses 3 squadron formations for its wings. So thats 108 X-Wings. And the Assault Frigates to boot.

I mean Peallon took one look at the odds and started to order a hyperspace jump to his bridge crew, who were understandbly frantic.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2005-07-13 12:43pm

That's very interesting Chris, every single source I've ever seen on Dreadnaughts doesn't include ion cannons. Is it a Katana fleet exclusive or a WEG / Esential Guide oversight?

Interestingly enough, going by the power figures in the ROTS ICS and Saxton's ISD estimate, if 6 Dreadnaughts can be considered more or less equal to an ISD that makes a Dreadnaught about half as powerful as a VSD or equal to 2 and a half Recusants.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-07-13 07:24pm

SCVN 2812 wrote:That's very interesting Chris, every single source I've ever seen on Dreadnaughts doesn't include ion cannons. Is it a Katana fleet exclusive or a WEG / Esential Guide oversight?

Interestingly enough, going by the power figures in the ROTS ICS and Saxton's ISD estimate, if 6 Dreadnaughts can be considered more or less equal to an ISD that makes a Dreadnaught about half as powerful as a VSD or equal to 2 and a half Recusants.

It seems implied by the Thrawn Trilogy and the lack of ion cannons in the guides and sourcebooks that they were a modification Bel Iblis added to his 6 Dreadnaughts. Also, it would make sense that a dread has half the firepower of a VSD, because a 600m rectangular cube should have at least half the volume of a 900m diamond. Plus its stated in the EGtV&V that the Empire and Rebels refitted the dreads still in service to keep them competitive.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-07-13 08:44pm

Dreadnaught all the way baby! Woo! Lets here it for dedicated warships from the fine company at Rendilli! *pumps fist*