Thanks alot, Mr. Wong. . . .I used to be a good Christian.

[Magnetic]

*Disclaimer* The title of this thread isn't as "sarcastic" as it sounds. I have no ill feelings towards anyone.

Not very long ago, sometime last year, I enrolled in a class at my middle-American University, the topic of the course was Art of the Ice Age. For the first class, the instructor stated that we were going to be looking at art forms that were roughly 30,000 years old. He went on to say that, just about everytime he taught the class, someone (a YEC) would strike up a debate along the lines that the earth was only 6,000-10,000 years old. He finished his thought by saying that if anyone in the class wanted to come by his office at a later time, he would show that person evidence of an older earth, in other words, he would tell you that your Christian doctrinal beliefs were wrong. Well, I did what any good Christian would do. . . . I dropped the class.

Not very long ago, I was in another forum when the topic of evolution vs. creationism came up. While reading the thread, I came across a thread that linked to a webpage. I clicked on it and read some stuff that didn't make me all that happy. It was creationtheory.org and it caused me to question what I was raised to believe. I was a believer in the 6 day creation, Noah's flood, etc.

The site caused me start thinking about the science behind the motive of the webpage. I even started going to another forum, this time a Christian forum board, to get some of these questions that were posed in Mr. Wong's site answered. I ultimately was given the answer, "God did it that way, who are you to ask why or how?"

To them, science is in defiance with what was written down in the Bible, which they see as inerrant and infallible. An answer that I don't accept, since accepting it goes against evidences that have been proven to be true.

At present, I still consider myself a Christian person, but I no longer believe in the literal-ness of the Bible. I see them, now, as analogies to express the ideas of God's being. The creation story, the flood story, Sodom and Gomorrah, Sampson, etc... Perhaps something took place that caused the stories to be told, but not necessarily a literal happening.

I also entertain the idea that the escapade of the Israelites, on their way to the 'promised land', was all their own doing. What I mean by that is this; If they did well in battle, they assumed that God's hand was upon them and condoned their actions. If they were conquered, enslaved, or endured some sort of plague, they assumed that they were out of God's blessing and that God caused these things to happen.

Anyway, these and other questions were asked in the Christian forum. None really answered to my liking. So, here I am now. Not really knowing where I stand. It isn't the same stand of the church I go to, which would be a fundementalist church. . . . . . . . . of which I play the bass guitar for. . . . . . . . ,but I feel like I'm between two places, not knowing which direction to take.

I can post more on this later. Right now, I need to get to a haircut appointment.

[Junghalli]

There's no conflict between a miracle-free universe and the existence of God as long as you accept the Bible as symbolic.
Also, there's really nothing wrong with being unsure of certain things (like whether or not God helped the Israelites leave Egypt or they did it all by themselves). As these are things that nobody could know for sure without actually being there, and talking loudly about what you think happened there doesn't make it a proven fact.

[Enforcer Talen]

Once you walk down the dark path, magnetic, forever will it dominate your destiny!

Former hard core christo here, literal interpretation of the bible. Few debates with wong, and that is now a no go.

[LadyTevar]

Despite what fundamentalists want to believe, there is a way to be Christian and understand that the Bible is symbolic, meant to teach ideas, not be the End-All Truth. I learned this lesson in Jr. High, after reading "The Last Battlefield" by C.S. Lewis, last in the Narnia series. In that book, Aslan considered people who were true to their faith to be his people, even if they didn't call on him by name.
So I asked my preacher if Muslims and Hindu who followed their religion faithfully would go to Heaven too, since they were being good religious people. He was adamant in stating that "only thru Christ will they be saved!" I asked what if they never had the chance to hear of Christ, would God still damn them. The answer was yes.

I stopped going to church that day. I didn't want to be part of someone who'd cast people into Hell just because they never had the chance to hear the Gospel.

Over the years, I've rebuilt my faith, praying in my own home outside any church and allowing others to worship as they please. To me, God is God, no matter if you call him Ywh, Allah, Christ, Krishnu, Kali, Inanna, or Odin. They're all facets of the True God, which is all we can ever see of Him/Her. He's just too big for us to grasp in full, so we take the bits we have and turn that into the total.

An while there are a great many Atheists on this board, they have their ideals that they hold dear as well, which they chose for themselves. You don't have to have a fear of God in order to be a better person.
Honestly, I've found Atheists to be far less hypocritical than most Christians I've ran into, and more likely to help you out in a pinch.

[Surlethe]

Anyway, these and other questions were asked in the Christian forum. None really answered to my liking. So, here I am now. Not really knowing where I stand. It isn't the same stand of the church I go to, which would be a fundementalist church. . . . . . . . . of which I play the bass guitar for. . . . . . . . ,but I feel like I'm between two places, not knowing which direction to take.

I find the best thing to do is admit to myself my faith is entirely irrational, and remind myself there really is nothing wrong with being irrational. Then, I is proceed on the assumption of a loving God, and reason my way to satisfactory conclusions.

The only thing your refusal to be literalistic about the Bible makes you is moderate. There's really no reason to consider moderate and liberal christians "bad" any more than there is reason to consider fundamentalist christians "good". It also makes you more reasonable, which is excellent for morale and contributes to intellectual growth.

However you end up resolving your internal disputes, good luck!

[FSTargetDrone]

An while there are a great many Atheists on this board, they have their ideals that they hold dear as well, which they chose for themselves. You don't have to have a fear of God in order to be a better person.
Honestly, I've found Atheists to be far less hypocritical than most Christians I've ran into, and more likely to help you out in a pinch.

Former Catholic here, but I was never really into it...

That asaide, what is with the "fear of God" that is used so often, in Christianity? I don't mean this as any kind on an attack, it's just always struck me as odd phrasing. I just saw you use it here and it made me think about it again. I was never taught to "fear God" in 12 years of Catholic school. Quite frankly, we seemed to basically go through the motions and learn the particulars of, say, the sacraments or parts of a mass, but I don't especially remember much preaching.

[Surlethe]

That asaide, what is with the "fear of God" that is used so often, in Christianity? I don't mean this as any kind on an attack, it's just always struck me as odd phrasing. I just saw you use it here and it made me think about it again. I was never taught to "fear God" in 12 years of Catholic school. Quite frankly, we seemed to basically go through the motions and learn the particulars of, say, the sacraments or parts of a mass, but I don't especially remember much preaching.

One of the nice things about Catholics: all the preaching has already been done, so we don't try to rehash old stuff.

I've been taught fear of God is an archaic, but still-used phrase which means respect for God's power and authority.

[Patrick Degan]

And Darth Wong collects another toaster-oven.

TV reference.

[Magnetic]

Anyway, these and other questions were asked in the Christian forum. None really answered to my liking. So, here I am now. Not really knowing where I stand. It isn't the same stand of the church I go to, which would be a fundementalist church. . . . . . . . . of which I play the bass guitar for. . . . . . . . ,but I feel like I'm between two places, not knowing which direction to take.

I find the best thing to do is admit to myself my faith is entirely irrational, and remind myself there really is nothing wrong with being irrational. Then, I is proceed on the assumption of a loving God, and reason my way to satisfactory conclusions.

The only thing your refusal to be literalistic about the Bible makes you is moderate. There's really no reason to consider moderate and liberal christians "bad" any more than there is reason to consider fundamentalist christians "good". It also makes you more reasonable, which is excellent for morale and contributes to intellectual growth.

However you end up resolving your internal disputes, good luck!

Moderate. Well, I'm at least that then, because a fundamentalist/conservative I no longer am.

I appreciate the replies so far. I look forward to reading more.

[wolveraptor]

You know, in all liklihood, your teacher was probably a Christian himself. Most people are in America are. In fact, most of the students, who probably didn't drop the class just because of that, were Chrsitians. It doesn't make you a "good" Christian to be a promoter of YECism. Hell, Catholics almost unanimously believe in theistic evolution. Are all 1 billion of them "bad" Christians?

Btw, since you're now officially a "moderate" what are your stances on abortion, gay marriage, etc.?

[Mr Bean]

You have taken the first step. Blind faith is not faith but slavery to an ideal that might not acutaly exist.

One of the reasons there are so many versions of christian is the simple fact the religion does not add up. The first hand of its teaching speak if murder, death, destruction for all the unbelievers. The second hand speaks of love and devotion to those same people.
It is fact that some, like yourself are simply not able to accept. Combine that with the blind obendence and you understand why so many people are turned off.

And add in the last part, if you acutal read the Bible, you understand what an asshole God is(According to the Bible's own words) He's Jeleious, he's vindictive, he's downright cruel. He's not perfect, he can be defeated and he fears certian things.

Which is why so many people simply say, there is a higher power out there and name him God. If you become on of those people, do so by choice. Not by order or creed. But choice and choice alone.

[Nephtys]

Congratulations, I'm proud of you. Raised a YEC, and now willing to be inquisitive enough, and wise enough to change your beliefs as you learn more. That's a very admirable trait, really... using that reasoning ability of yours.

Anyway, welcome. People tend to interperet things in ways that suit their needs, to the exclusion of all other data, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes not. For any person who can not concieve of the notion that... a person... wrote/changed the Bible, and refuses to budge.. that's not showing faith at all. That's showing stupidity and arrogance. I'm an Atheist, but that doesn't mean I'd stand by it if I was given sufficient evidence.

Anyway, welcome to the halls of reason, Newbie. May your stay here be long and enlightening.

[Darth Wong]

Fundies aren't really accustomed to being questioned on the literal accuracy of the Bible, so it's not surprising that you got unsatisfactory answers to your questions. They have a few stock answers, and once you figure out that those answers are really just evasions or head-in-sand denials, the choice is clear: you can't take the Bible literally. In any case, congratulations for figuring that out. You can still be a Christian, but you don't have to be a fundie.

[Magnetic]

Fundies aren't really accustomed to being questioned on the literal accuracy of the Bible, so it's not surprising that you got unsatisfactory answers to your questions. They have a few stock answers, and once you figure out that those answers are really just evasions or head-in-sand denials, the choice is clear: you can't take the Bible literally. In any case, congratulations for figuring that out. You can still be a Christian, but you don't have to be a fundie.

You know, a part of me "wishes" I hadn't come across your site. You know the line from The Matrix, . . . *Harp is played* "Ignorance is bliss". However, the deed is done, I can't turn back the clock. The other part of me sees it as an opportunity to research other truths that are not considered 'biblically literal' now. I'm seen, on the Christian forum, as having controversial topics.

Congratulations, I'm proud of you. Raised a YEC, and now willing to be inquisitive enough, and wise enough to change your beliefs as you learn more. That's a very admirable trait, really... using that reasoning ability of yours.

Anyway, welcome. People tend to interperet things in ways that suit their needs, to the exclusion of all other data, sometimes deliberately, and sometimes not. For any person who can not concieve of the notion that... a person... wrote/changed the Bible, and refuses to budge.. that's not showing faith at all. That's showing stupidity and arrogance. I'm an Atheist, but that doesn't mean I'd stand by it if I was given sufficient evidence.

Anyway, welcome to the halls of reason, Newbie. May your stay here be long and enlightening.

I appreciate the kind words.

You know, my mind looks at this 'journey' and is excited. I have a fascination with things scientific, watching TLC, Discovery, National Geographic, etc. and even reading about these types of subjects on webpages and forums. However, my religious upbringing is a bit damaged at the same time, to read words that are negative towards it and what I've always known to be truth, . . . .now looking at it in a different light, it has not been an easy process. But like you said, sufficient evidence has caused me start down this path.

Yes, I'm still a Christian, but now I look at it in a different light, one that I have to believe makes more sense than what I've known to be the only interpretation. So far, it's been an enlightening experience.

BTW, on a side note, my brother (obviously raised the same way as me) about a year ago, along with his wife, started looking into and participating in Wicca. He also had many questions that he couldn't find answers to in the church, something that he recently informed me of. In the past, I would have been utterly disappointed. Yet today, though not what I'm interested in pursuing, I have supported their new beliefs.


*I hope I'm making sense. It is late, I'm tired, and have a headache.

[FSTargetDrone]

Not very long ago, sometime last year, I enrolled in a class at my middle-American University, the topic of the course was Art of the Ice Age. For the first class, the instructor stated that we were going to be looking at art forms that were roughly 30,000 years old. He went on to say that, just about everytime he taught the class, someone (a YEC) would strike up a debate along the lines that the earth was only 6,000-10,000 years old. He finished his thought by saying that if anyone in the class wanted to come by his office at a later time, he would show that person evidence of an older earth, in other words, he would tell you that your Christian doctrinal beliefs were wrong. Well, I did what any good Christian would do. . . . I dropped the class.

As an aside, I would strongly recommend that, if you have the means, you sign up again for this class, or another like it.

[The Guid]

This is one of the problems with the way most people are introducted to religion... disillusionment. You can not control the flow of information forever. I came across the site and was not shaken slightly, mainly because I was introducted to Christianity a different way and was not even vaguely bothered by the LIES OF THIS IGNORAMUS!! HE WILL PAY IN THE AFTERLIFE!

(heh... kidding...)

No, I wasn't bothered because the idea that God did not actually create the world in 6 days.

Have fun on your new journeys of self discovery. And keep praying.

[Adjudicator]

I myself was also once a.... Christian who believed in miraculous things like the events written down the Bible, Faith Healing, Bieng Saved, etc.

I was once very proud to be a Christian as well.

However, my first doubts about bieng a religious Zealot started to appear once I purchased the full bible (New International Version). Once I noted certain...things in the bible, as well as the many differences between my bible and the other Bibles my friends also use, I decided to dig deeper into the past.

Reading up articles by both Scientists and Christians further increased my doubt. I had no idea which stand was the stronger stand. I had also thought that Religion and Science could be reconciled eventually, and needless to say, I believed that the Earth was created in Six days (But i do not believe in the Earth is only 6,000 years old).

One day, I discovered this site, while I was doing a search on Star Wars information (My love for Star Wars being reawakened by playing the game Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast). I decided to lurk as a guest on this board for a year, and it had enriched me in not just Star Wars, but also Science, technology, etc. in general.

Surfing Science, Logic and Morality Board, Michael Wong's other page on Creationism, as well as following the links on the Creationism Page, finally put several of my doubts to rest.

[NecronLord]

(like whether or not God helped the Israelites leave Egypt or they did it all by themselves).

Or whether they were never there at all, but were at one stage dominated or annexed by the Egyptian Empire in the New Kingdom, as history and archeology tell.

[SVPD]

I have found that for the most part, fundamentalists/literalists are more interested in the confrontation with science than they are in actually examining their own beliefs or resolving the contradictions between the two.

Believing in God or Christ is an act of faith. It is not logical, rational, or scientifically, sound, and it is not meant to be. If you could prove Christianity true through science, logic, or rationality, you wouldn't need faith any more, and that is what Christianity demands.

Many Christians loose sight of this, however. They think that it is a test of faith to argue the scientific/logical merits, when in actuality the real faith lies in simply admitting "What I believe cannot be proven scientifically or logically, but I believe it anyhow". It is a form of humility lost on too many Christians.

To make an example, the beginning of Genesis. It should be obvious that the story is not literally true. For one thing, observations of the real universe contradict it, and for another, no human was actually present at the time. The point of the story is that it was God's will that the universe exist, not the details of how it was done. There is no point in arguing that it is literally true; in fact doing so tends to contradict the book itself, since it states "On the seventh day He rested". What could cause God to have to rest?

[Darth Wong]

I have found that for the most part, fundamentalists/literalists are more interested in the confrontation with science than they are in actually examining their own beliefs or resolving the contradictions between the two.

Believing in God or Christ is an act of faith. It is not logical, rational, or scientifically, sound, and it is not meant to be. If you could prove Christianity true through science, logic, or rationality, you wouldn't need faith any more, and that is what Christianity demands.

Many Christians loose sight of this, however. They think that it is a test of faith to argue the scientific/logical merits, when in actuality the real faith lies in simply admitting "What I believe cannot be proven scientifically or logically, but I believe it anyhow". It is a form of humility lost on too many Christians.

To make an example, the beginning of Genesis. It should be obvious that the story is not literally true. For one thing, observations of the real universe contradict it, and for another, no human was actually present at the time. The point of the story is that it was God's will that the universe exist, not the details of how it was done. There is no point in arguing that it is literally true; in fact doing so tends to contradict the book itself, since it states "On the seventh day He rested". What could cause God to have to rest?

The kind of thinking you describe takes too much effort. It's much easier for people to simply declare that everything in the book is completely true and that anyone or anything in contradiction with this "truth" is evil. It's childish, and intellectually lazy, and in many respects downright stupid, but unfortunately, a lot of people have all those characteristics.

[Perinquus]

The kind of thinking you describe takes too much effort. It's much easier for people to simply declare that everything in the book is completely true and that anyone or anything in contradiction with this "truth" is evil. It's childish, and intellectually lazy, and in many respects downright stupid, but unfortunately, a lot of people have all those characteristics.

You're damn right they do. I grew up surrounded by fundamentalist, biblical inerrantists. When I was in high school twenty years ago (goddamn is it that long already?!?), I read the Bible, and actually started to wonder about the moral atrocities and the contradictions (both internal, and contradictions with science), and in looking for answers, I gradually lost my faith. I don't miss it now. And the more I look back on it, the more I marvel that I was once willing to believe such things. I console myself with the thought that it was not entirely my fault. I was indoctrinated as a small child, and it's neither fast nor easy to shake such things off.

But I am the only person I know from that church who did it. (I suppose it's likely that there are at least a few others who went there, and had similar experiences to mine, but I don't personally know of any.) The rest, including my mother and grandmother, who still go there, have erected walls of ignorance so impregnable that there is simply no chance of getting them to see how absurd literal belief in the genesis creation myth or the flood story, et al. is. You can argue rings around them, but you won't convince them.

[Magnetic]

FSTargetDrone, if this instructor offers it again, I probably will take it. I have to have certain number of upper division classes to complete my major. Oh, someone stated that this instructor was probably a Christian. Hardly. I would place him more in the Secular Humanist ideology. I actually had him in another class a couple of semesters ago. History of Modern Art. He's a very good instructor!

Literalists in confrontation with science. I've seen many posts, on the Christian Forum, that stated that creation and science don't have to contradict one another. But then they turn around and say that it was 'intelligent design', or that "God created it to LOOK old."

Or regarding why God would create a Hell in the first place, they say that we are finite humans with finite minds, so we can't understand all that God is. Whereas there may be truth to that (if a being could create/bring about life, such being would have to be well beyond our technological understanding), it doesn't answer the problem with creating a place where unbelievers go, that being a place of torment and 'gnashing of teeth'.


I should start another thread with quotes from the Christian Forum page. I could prove to be good reading for some on here. Would that be an interesting idea?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

FSTargetDrone, if this instructor offers it again, I probably will take it. I have to have certain number of upper division classes to complete my major. Oh, someone stated that this instructor was probably a Christian. Hardly. I would place him more in the Secular Humanist ideology. I actually had him in another class a couple of semesters ago. History of Modern Art. He's a very good instructor!

Literalists in confrontation with science. I've seen many posts, on the Christian Forum, that stated that creation and science don't have to contradict one another. But then they turn around and say that it was 'intelligent design', or that "God created it to LOOK old."

Or regarding why God would create a Hell in the first place, they say that we are finite humans with finite minds, so we can't understand all that God is. Whereas there may be truth to that (if a being could create/bring about life, such being would have to be well beyond our technological understanding), it doesn't answer the problem with creating a place where unbelievers go, that being a place of torment and 'gnashing of teeth'.


I should start another thread with quotes from the Christian Forum page. I could prove to be good reading for some on here. Would that be an interesting idea?

Sure. Just remember to break your links, though. Though, there are sites out there that collect some of the more insane rantings of the lowest-IQ members of some Christian boards, such as Fundies say the Darndest Things and Fundies say the Darndest Things, ver. 2.0

[Magnetic]

FSTargetDrone, if this instructor offers it again, I probably will take it. I have to have certain number of upper division classes to complete my major. Oh, someone stated that this instructor was probably a Christian. Hardly. I would place him more in the Secular Humanist ideology. I actually had him in another class a couple of semesters ago. History of Modern Art. He's a very good instructor!

Literalists in confrontation with science. I've seen many posts, on the Christian Forum, that stated that creation and science don't have to contradict one another. But then they turn around and say that it was 'intelligent design', or that "God created it to LOOK old."

Or regarding why God would create a Hell in the first place, they say that we are finite humans with finite minds, so we can't understand all that God is. Whereas there may be truth to that (if a being could create/bring about life, such being would have to be well beyond our technological understanding), it doesn't answer the problem with creating a place where unbelievers go, that being a place of torment and 'gnashing of teeth'.


I should start another thread with quotes from the Christian Forum page. I could prove to be good reading for some on here. Would that be an interesting idea?

Sure. Just remember to break your links, though. Though, there are sites out there that collect some of the more insane rantings of the lowest-IQ members of some Christian boards, such as Fundies say the Darndest Things and Fundies say the Darndest Things, ver. 2.0

I'll have to look up those site you gave later.

As far as what I would do, it would just be a few snippets from that site, not an actual link. Although a link would give a broader idea of the complete thread, I would just pick out the best statement.

[FSTargetDrone]

FSTargetDrone, if this instructor offers it again, I probably will take it. I have to have certain number of upper division classes to complete my major. Oh, someone stated that this instructor was probably a Christian. Hardly. I would place him more in the Secular Humanist ideology. I actually had him in another class a couple of semesters ago. History of Modern Art. He's a very good instructor!

That's good. Take a variety of classes, as much as you can. Branch out. Perhaps some philosphy, literature, maybe a science class, astronomy, something. Some of the best classes I took were art history. It has nothing to do with what I do now, but it was nice to have the experience.