Skynet vs the Old Republic

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-07-29 07:06pm

A wormhole opens, linking the Earth from the Terminator timeline with a rim world, say Tattoine, in the waning years of the Republic.

Skynet discovers this wormhole, which is near one of its bases, and quickly constructs a small base around it, before sending some T-800s through to scout out the place.

The other end of the wormhole is in the desert about 50 miles out of Mos Espa. The T-800s soon discover Mos Espa, and from a distance they spot signs of human habitation. So those naked endoskeletons return to the wormhole, and flesh-covered infiltrators take their place, entering the city and moving among the crowds - blending in. They quickly sample the language of local people, and begin to build up a knowledge of it, as well as discovering the widespread existance of droids, including protocol droids which they discover they can communicate with in pure binary. They soon learn the extent of the SW galaxy - and that the new planet they have found is only a small and minor part of this galaxy, a backwater so to speak.

Skynet, on recieving this information, directs its infiltrators to aquire starships and spacegoing vessels by whatever means nescesary, to study and to use. It also prepares a T-1000, which it intends to send to Coruscant to usurp the Supreme Chancellor's form (Valorum at this time) and by so doing to take control of the entire galaxy.

After having stolen some small vessels and returned them through the wormhole, Skynet uses the unique properties of the mimetic polyalloy to do a rapid full analysis of the spacecraft, gaining a working knowledge of repulsor, ion drive, and hyperdrive systems, along with the associated power cores, and other systems such as energy shielding, SW sensor technology, etc. It designes a new breed of HK - spacefaring, capable of rising from a planet to orbit and then hypering between the stars. No pilot, only its own machine intelligence.

Using its new technology and spacecraft, Skynet soon disposes of the Human resistance. Homo Sapiens becomes extinct on Earth.

Skynet then concentrates its full attentions on the other end of that wormhole.

Spacegoing HKs are produced in massive numbers, and travel in groups which can surprise, assault and disable larger ships. Skynet directs them to disable and capture civilian cargo vessels to serve as transports for large numbers of Terminators.

After aquiring a requisite number of these, Skynet prepares 10,000 T-800 infiltrators - all different in external appearance, and has them flown to Coruscant, where they are dissemenated amongst the population. Finally, a T-1000 is sent, its mission being to work its way into the senate, and, by a combination of subterfuge and assasination, destabilise the government, just before copying (and of course terminating) Valorum and assuming his role as supreme chancellor.

What happens?

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-29 07:33pm

Very important question - When you say the waning days of the Republic... Do you mean before or after Episode 1 or Episode 2 or...? I ask b/c of the status of the Jedi, Palpatine, and a standing army, etc.

One thing is certain - blasters are going to be much more useful against terminators than 20th century slug throwers. Even against T-1000's. In my humble opinion, of course.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-29 07:34pm

SkyNet uses the "unique properties" of the mimetic alloy to instantly reverse-engineer tens of thousands of years of technological development? Mimetic alloy can instantly reverse-engineer alien technology now, instead of merely duplicating its surface appearance?

You want people to START projecting what would happen after SkyNet has already duplicated technology far beyond its own comprehension and seamlessly replaced Valorum with an infiltrator despite the Jedi? Half of the projections will retroactively invalidate the scenario, by mentioning Jedi powers or the vast technological disparity between SkyNet and the Republic.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-29 08:06pm

NTM that Tattione already carries Droid Detectors, heck they have them in bars

No idea how they work but they could do everything from scan for a high metal content to acutal 3D scan the target

T-800 and T-1000 I think could both easily be Found out, T-800 because all they bascily are, is flesh covered droids and T-1000 lack anything even remotly resembling human organs or such which would trip things up

Oh and incase anyone wants to make any well they are not common

If a *BEATEN up old Droid Decector is found in a third rate bar, on a jerkwater world they have to be kind of cheap

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-07-30 06:01am

You don't understand the intelligence of Skynet.

Look at the rate of technological development in the films - Skynet takes late 20th century technology, and in a few years it has T-800s.

A few years after that, it has the T-1000 and T-Meg.

And a few years after that, it has developed a sentient energy matrix (the Terminatrix, which will appear in T3).

When you compare this rate of technological advance to that of the human society that preceeded it, it is obvious that the technologically innovative abilities of Skynet far exceed those of humans.

Incidentally, the abilities of mimetic polyalloy that I was referring to are the ability to instantly scan the complete internal structure of an object by physical contact. The ability to interface directly with a computer system by flowing right in among its circuits, and draw information out that way.

These things I learned by reading novelisations and companion literature.

There was actually a scene filmed for T-2 but that was left on the cutting room floor, illustrating this. The T-800 was in John's bedroom, in his house, slowly moving around the room, running its hands over everything - sampling everything. At one point, it came to a poster that covered a hidden hole in the wall where John had stashed a shoebox full of information from his mother. The moment the T-1000 even touched the edge of the poster, it knew the condition of the wall behind it - that there was a hidden space there, and immediately ripped it off the wall to reveal the hidden hole.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-30 09:22am

Funny humans would know that to seeing as posters on walls tend to not have a give that the posters over holes in the wall have

When you compare this rate of technological advance to that of the human society that preceeded it, it is obvious that the technologically innovative abilities of Skynet far exceed those of humans.

And it would get the unique materials that go into SW ships WHERE now?
According to the book Droids are rather hated on Tattione and droid dectors are everywhere, now then if a T-800 starts into town he's going to be setting them off, Big problem?

So he's left to pray on old farmers and sand-people who use mostly old beat-up weaponry but they are blasters...

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-07-30 09:26am

That's so scientifically ludicrous I'm not even going to mention it... I could do the same thing. Its called feeling if there is no wall behind the poster. Hey, I must be a super-enhanced poly-mimetic alloy.

Aside from which, I point out that T3 apparently takes place about right now, and that T2's super Terminator didn't actually get developed later. It was a prototype that was sent as a backup incase the T800 failed.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-07-30 09:36am

Like Mr. Wong, I question your starting position. For example, one could equally state:

"Lets take all the weapons away from the US troops, line them up naked in ALaska, and have Frenchmen with Assault Cannons and a few At-AT's standing around in heavily fortified positions. Then they start fighting. Who wins?"

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-30 10:08am

Smiling Bandit wrote:Like Mr. Wong, I question your starting position. For example, one could equally state:

"Lets take all the weapons away from the US troops, line them up naked in ALaska, and have Frenchmen with Assault Cannons and a few At-AT's standing around in heavily fortified positions. Then they start fighting. Who wins?"

The Americans of course, the French would surrender

Manji · Post by **Manji** » 2002-07-30 10:16am

These droid detectors... what's the point of them? I mean, how hard is it to detect a droid? (Talking from the SW perspective here - people in SW don't expect droids to look indistinguishable from human - they expect them to look like droids.) It's likely they only identify a droid by looking at its outward appearance.

Guri went all over the galaxy and nobody ever knew she was a droid. So obviously these "droid detectors" are only reliable when used to look for droids that, well... look like droids.

And even if a T-800 had its cover blown and somebody started to bother it... they would quickly die. (The terminator could kill one person in an instant with its bare hands in a HTH situation, and if it was surrounded by a group, could pull a concealed plasma rifle and start cutting loose with near-100% accurate full-auto fire.)

The T-1000 is even better. It could just bypass any droid scanner by whatever means.

Say it wanted to enter the supreme chancellor's private quarters - it could turn up near them, then turn itself into a couch or something, with a sign on it reading "to be delivered to Valorum's quarters". It would then be picked up and carried in by people who thought it was an ordinary piece of furniture, and when the good chancellor later came back and sat down on this new couch... schoom, a mass of spikes impales him.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-30 10:55am

Ok now your using faulty logic

Talking from the SW perspective here - people in SW don't expect droids to look indistinguishable from human - they expect them to look like droids

Ehhh Wrong, They don't expect them at all, Guri comes to mind, she looked and sounded perfectly like a human yet people figured out she was a bot real quick. Second SW does that simply because ITS FUNCTIONAL, WHY give Asmotech Droids and Translator bots. why make them look exactly like humans? Whats the point? Your just wasting resourse and forcing them to inculded extra cooling equipment.

Guri went all over the galaxy and nobody ever knew she was a droid. So obviously these "droid detectors" are only reliable when used to look for droids that, well... look like droids

Wrong, they all knew she was a bot, did she ever come by any droid dectectors when she was with Lando and Leia? Thats right she did not. Did you notice hugly extermental cost billions to make used anywhere in describing her? No simply it was the choices of her manfuacter
IG-88 had a run of Driod storm-troopers built that, acted, talked and did everything to look just like humans even inculded things to make sure if found out, they could self-destruct

And even if a T-800 had its cover blown and somebody started to bother it... they would quickly die. (The terminator could kill one person in an instant with its bare hands in a HTH situation, and if it was surrounded by a group, could pull a concealed plasma rifle and start cutting loose with near-100% accurate full-auto fire.)

Concealed Plasma rifle,
LOL and where are they getting these? And are you forgeting the cops and local crimal types who would not take kindly to people dropping dead

The T-1000 is even better. It could just bypass any droid scanner by whatever means.

Translation, Cause I said so
This one is even worse, Your talking about a walking lump of metal and nanites, By simple metal decectors alone he would stand out
You could tell he's not human using 20th Century Tecnology, It would be childes play for SW to do this

Say it wanted to enter the supreme chancellor's private quarters - it could turn up near them, then turn itself into a couch or something, with a sign on it reading "to be delivered to Valorum's quarters

This is of course, one it could hold that shape for a very long time, Two it could have the same struculer intergty
Three it assume the Chancellor is A BLODDY FREKEN MORON. And four that it would get by the standered bomb/poison/trap sensors mentioned that everyone can get ahold of
Five that it can even do this to begin with..

Your Grasping at Straws Manji, your inventing capabilites, your contradiction Cannon evidance and your delbratly scewing things as much as possible towards Sky-net becuase frankly its obvious to a dim-witted blind monkey that you want Sky-Net to win, your not playing devils Advocte, despite how ludicris this senarior is to begin with you've tilted it even more so,

You might as well say
Well what if a Wormhole between the Old Stormtroopers home where they are all blind, and deaf and are unarmed opens to Skynet could it win?

Either approace this Debate as it SHOULD be, A DEBATE or stop the Terminatior Unverise Worship and shut up

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-30 11:11am

They'd get discovered the millisecond their supreme chancellot inflitrator encountered a jedi anyway and jedi > terminator as far as I'm concerned. They could probably deflect the plasma rifle shots with a sabre and unlike a normal human the terminator would not have a reflex speed advantage.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-30 11:17am

Manji wrote:These droid detectors... what's the point of them? I mean, how hard is it to detect a droid? (Talking from the SW perspective here - people in SW don't expect droids to look indistinguishable from human - they expect them to look like droids.) It's likely they only identify a droid by looking at its outward appearance.

Guri was detected by a bio-scanner, which is standard security practice at all entrances to any place important.

And even if a T-800 had its cover blown and somebody started to bother it... they would quickly die. (The terminator could kill one person in an instant with its bare hands in a HTH situation, and if it was surrounded by a group, could pull a concealed plasma rifle and start cutting loose with near-100% accurate full-auto fire.)

"Near-100% accurate?" Now you're pulling Trekkie-style bullshit. We saw Kyle Reese run towards a T-800 for at least 2 seconds without getting hit, and he couldn't have been more than 10 metres away. That T-800 was just randomly spraying.

The T-1000 is even better. It could just bypass any droid scanner by whatever means.

Leap in logic. Somehow, you seem to believe that a flexible metal won't be picked up by metal detectors, and worse yet, that it will somehow fool a bioscanner that examines DNA.

Say it wanted to enter the supreme chancellor's private quarters - it could turn up near them, then turn itself into a couch or something, with a sign on it reading "to be delivered to Valorum's quarters". It would then be picked up and carried in by people who thought it was an ordinary piece of furniture, and when the good chancellor later came back and sat down on this new couch... schoom, a mass of spikes impales him.

Oh, right. If somebody left a couch at the front gate of the White House with a sign saying "please delivery to President Bush", security would just carry it right in and leave it in the Oval Office. That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-30 11:52am

[

Say it wanted to enter the supreme chancellor's private quarters - it could turn up near them, then turn itself into a couch or something, with a sign on it reading "to be delivered to Valorum's quarters". It would then be picked up and carried in by people who thought it was an ordinary piece of furniture, and when the good chancellor later came back and sat down on this new couch... schoom, a mass of spikes impales him.

Oh, right. If somebody left a couch at the front gate of the White House with a sign saying "please delivery to President Bush", security would just carry it right in and leave it in the Oval Office. That is the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard.[/quote]

The likeliest scenario does seem to be that, were the T-1000 not immediately detected, the T-1000 couch would be wired with several thermal detonators within ten minutes and blown up just in case. It's the way the Secret Service would (and should) handle such a situation.

As for a full-auto plasma rifle, that's apparently what stormtrooper squad leaders are supposed to be equipped with, and the Galactic Empire's plasma weapons are quite a bit more powerful when one looks at the visuals.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-30 02:32pm

"Near-100% accurate?" Now you're pulling Trekkie-style bullshit. We saw Kyle Reese run towards a T-800 for at least 2 seconds without getting hit, and he couldn't have been more than 10 metres away. That T-800 was just randomly spraying.

what scene was this? In the dance club? I dont remember kyle running towards the t-800, i remember him diving behind the bar, and barely getting away from the Uzi.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2002-07-30 11:09pm

Omega-13 wrote:what scene was this? In the dance club? I dont remember kyle running towards the t-800, i remember him diving behind the bar, and barely getting away from the Uzi.

Flashback to the future, when a T-800 started shooting up one of the human encampments with an automatic plasma rifle.

And as for the Uzi in the dance club, that's worth mentioning too. Why wasn't Kyle Reese killed in that scene? How far away was he? 5 metres? And the T-800 should be strong enough to grip that Uzi and fire it with good accuracy one-handed?

Certainly, there's no evidence for a near-perfect accuracy claim.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-07-30 11:18pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:what scene was this? In the dance club? I dont remember kyle running towards the t-800, i remember him diving behind the bar, and barely getting away from the Uzi.
Flashback to the future, when a T-800 started shooting up one of the human encampments with an automatic plasma rifle.

And as for the Uzi in the dance club, that's worth mentioning too. Why wasn't Kyle Reese killed in that scene? How far away was he? 5 metres? And the T-800 should be strong enough to grip that Uzi and fire it with good accuracy one-handed?

Certainly, there's no evidence for a near-perfect accuracy claim.

How about when the T-800 is firing while on his motorcycle chasing Reece and Sara....didn't see 100% accuracy, or the chase through the parking lot , T-800 was firing a shotgun....100%? Nah.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 07:04pm

the t-800 seemed to go through an upgrade process, or something, because its accuracy certainly increased in the second movie.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-07-31 07:12pm

Hmm, can we use the novels as well seeing as they are canon too?

Also, I'd love to see what the T-1G can do.

Note: We need a Dr. Evil smiley.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-07-31 07:30pm

Omega-13 wrote:the t-800 seemed to go through an upgrade process, or something, because its accuracy certainly increased in the second movie.

I wouldn't say that. It repeatedly missed the cab of an 18-wheeler truck with its grenade launcher, remember?

Also, in order to make sure it could get an accurate shot at a human knee for disablement purposes, it always approached to point-blank range (watch the big battle at Cyberdyne). If it had this mythical 100% accuracy, it could have easily done it from long range, without losing most of its skin covering in order to get close and take the shot from less than 6 feet away.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-07-31 08:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:the t-800 seemed to go through an upgrade process, or something, because its accuracy certainly increased in the second movie.
I wouldn't say that. It repeatedly missed the cab of an 18-wheeler truck with its grenade launcher, remember?

Also, in order to make sure it could get an accurate shot at a human knee for disablement purposes, it always approached to point-blank range (watch the big battle at Cyberdyne). If it had this mythical 100% accuracy, it could have easily done it from long range, without losing most of its skin covering in order to get close and take the shot from less than 6 feet away.

Nothing can really have 100 acccuracy, you can still dodge stuff.

The there is the fact that in that particular SWAT scene, Ah-nuld used a .45 or 9mm pistol which even if you had good accuracy levels, would still miss if over a certain range due to air displacement, or something getting in the way (even a glass vase could upset a bullet) and so on. There is only so much accuracy you can get before gravity isn't the only factor that affects it.

Still, they have a far better accuracy rating that humans in many regards (especially in Infiltrator and Rising Storm). It's not like the Republic has shown orders of magnitude better accuracy levels either.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2002-07-31 10:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Omega-13 wrote:the t-800 seemed to go through an upgrade process, or something, because its accuracy certainly increased in the second movie.
I wouldn't say that. It repeatedly missed the cab of an 18-wheeler truck with its grenade launcher, remember?

Also, in order to make sure it could get an accurate shot at a human knee for disablement purposes, it always approached to point-blank range (watch the big battle at Cyberdyne). If it had this mythical 100% accuracy, it could have easily done it from long range, without losing most of its skin covering in order to get close and take the shot from less than 6 feet away.

would you agree a t-800's aim is above human?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-31 11:02pm

would you agree a t-800's aim is above human

Depends on the Human

I'd say they were at least equal to US Army Troops Fresh out of boot camp

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-08-01 03:23am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Nothing can really have 100 acccuracy, you can still dodge stuff.

Not really. No one literally dodges a bullet; that implies that you can actually see it and react to it in time. That is simply impossible, given the limits of the human body. You can get lucky and have the bullet miss you, but that's not the same as dodging.

The there is the fact that in that particular SWAT scene, Ah-nuld used a .45 or 9mm pistol which even if you had good accuracy levels, would still miss if over a certain range due to air displacement, or something getting in the way (even a glass vase could upset a bullet) and so on. There is only so much accuracy you can get before gravity isn't the only factor that affects it.

Yes, there are limits to the accuracy of a 9mm handgun. However, those limits are not so strict that an android with presumably superhuman accuracy should have to be less than two metres from his victims (yes, two; not twenty, but two) before he can get an accurate shot. Nothing got in the way of his knee-shots at Cyberdyne, and air displacement/gravity are not significant at such short ranges. The T-800 does not have accuracy superior to the average well-trained human. It may even be inferior.

Still, they have a far better accuracy rating that humans in many regards (especially in Infiltrator and Rising Storm).

Are those comics? I'm talking about the canon movies. Unless James Cameron grants some kind of canon or official status to these comics, they might as well not exist.

It's not like the Republic has shown orders of magnitude better accuracy levels either.

They don't need to. The Republic has vastly superior numbers and firepower, not to mention space travel and orbital support. Skynet has nothing but tough-looking battle droids and lumbering H-K units.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-08-01 04:10am

Yes, there are limits to the accuracy of a 9mm handgun. However, those limits are not so strict that an android with presumably superhuman accuracy should have to be less than two metres from his victims (yes, two; not twenty, but two) before he can get an accurate shot. Nothing got in the way of his knee-shots at Cyberdyne, and air displacement/gravity are not significant at such short ranges. The T-800 does not have accuracy superior to the average well-trained human. It may even be inferior.

Actually, the accuracy limitation are pretty pronounced beyond a few meters with an .45 weapon, there is no way you could be sure of hitting a leg in a non lethal way from the end of that hall. Being hit by a hundred odd rounds of 9mm fire at the same time wont improve things.

Then there's the fact that most of the SWAT personnel's legs were hidden behind the desk and support columns. That make long range shots kindo hard. He had to get fairly close not matte what simply to have LOS to what he need to shoot.

The Terminator had orders not to kill, and given that there was only a risk of "Possible damage" I'd expect it to get a close as it needed to ensure those orders were not broken.

Shooting people in the legs without breaking an artery while firing from the hip while still being hit by dozens more 9mm rounds is quite impossible for a well trained human. The human would have been knocked over for starters. If the rounds don’t penetrate, then all the energy goes into you. Most 9mm pistol rounds have around 300 foot-pounds of energy at point blank. 50 foot-pounds is expected to be able to knock a man over, assuming zero penetration.

As for grenade launch accuracy, it's just as likely the Terminator was trying to blow out the radiator and disable the truck that way. His second shot misses because the pickups going over a high curb at 40 MPH, and he could have been aiming at a tire for all we know.

Are those comics? I'm talking about the canon movies. Unless James Cameron grants some kind of canon or official status to these comics, they might as well not exist.

Books actually, and their status is unknown to me at least, I don't Cameron controls the right to Terminator in the first place.

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