General order 34 effects?

[The Grim Squeaker]

I know that GE34 is the ST equilevent of a BDZ, however I never saw the episode it was in, and don't know up to what extent the planet was "damaged".

According the a certain st-vs-sw site the bombardment of about 30 ST ships over 20 hours is the same effect as a BDZ.
I need this info to prove that an Exterminatus requires much more firepower, even before the climax of the life-eater virus).

So can some kind poster give me some usable screen caps, and quotes as to the extent of the damage, ships involved, exact time etc... involved?

[Lord Revan]

GE 34 is never shown onscreen (IIRC), the only time I recall being mentioned in an episode or a movie it was not executed.

[The Grim Squeaker]

GE 34 is never shown onscreen (IIRC), the only time I recall being mentioned in an episode or a movie it was not executed.

Are you sure? Wasn't it performed on the planet with Ketrasel white?
Even if it was performed off-screen, was the planet livable, molten etc..?

[Lord Revan]

I don't know, as I've seen very little of DS9 or Voyager.

[Bounty]

First of, it's General Order 24.

The effects of a GO24 were never shown; preparations were made to perform it twice, IIRC, but it was never executed. The Romulan offensive on the Founder planet would be their equivalent of a GO 24, but that event is...controversial.

The GO 24 is described as the destruction of all population centers on a planet, and can be done by a single Constitution-class starship in an unknown timeframe.

[Bounty]

Addendum : Kirk describes GO24 as the destruction of the planet.

The DS9 episode where the Romulan perform an orbital bombardment of the Founder planet is "The Die is Cast", script here, screencaps here.

[El Moose Monstero]

Wasn't General Order 24 part of a bluff on the gangster planet? Or am I confusing it with another episode? It's been years since TOS.

[Lord Revan]

Wasn't General Order 24 part of a bluff on the gangster planet? Or am I confusing it with another episode? It's been years since TOS.

You're confusing it another episode, GO24 was used as threat on the episode with two planet that waged war with computers.

[Darth Servo]

I know that GE34 is the ST equilevent of a BDZ, however I never saw the episode it was in, and don't know up to what extent the planet was "damaged".

(quote copied from the Wong vs Lord Edam debate) "All cities and installations on Eminiar VII have been located, identified and fed into our firecontrol system. In one hour forty five minutes the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."- Scotty, from "Taste of Armageddon" (after being given General Order 24 by Kirk).

Key words: Cities and installations, inhabited surface. Not the entire surface. They hit the major population centers. Not the entire surface the way a BDZ does. And he doesn't exactly say what "destroyed" means. He certainly gives no indication that it means exterminate every last person in the area. Given that 100 megatons was clearly beyond the E-nil's capability in "The Doomsday Machine", its not unreasonable to conclude that the bombardment required by GO24 was smaller than a single megaton explosion per city.

According the a certain st-vs-sw site the bombardment of about 30 ST ships over 20 hours is the same effect as a BDZ.
I need this info to prove that an Exterminatus requires much more firepower, even before the climax of the life-eater virus).

So can some kind poster give me some usable screen caps, and quotes as to the extent of the damage, ships involved, exact time etc... involved?

The surface of the Founders world wasn't visibly damaged by the bombardment at all. It made some funky looking brown rings which can easily be chalked up to the chain reaction nature of Trek weapons but ZERO magma was exposed by the bombardment. Not even a mountain on the surface changed its appearance.

[Bounty]

Given that 100 megatons was clearly beyond the E-nil's capability in "The Doomsday Machine"

How do you figure ?

[Stark]

Y'know, needing less than 100MT to destroy the device, being forced to detonate a cruiser to do it? Sounds like their weapons aren't at that level yes?

[Bounty]

They needed to blow up *something* inside the device, torpedoes were out, and shuttles didn't give a big enough bang.

[Lord Revan]

Well I wouldn't want to defend any rabid trekkie fantasies, but E-nil was suffering from power problems and Photon Torps were out of questions due to the Antimatter neutralization field.

[Darth Servo]

They needed to blow up *something* inside the device, torpedoes were out, and shuttles didn't give a big enough bang.

Why would torps be out? They make explosions. Just shoot them into the mouth of the thing. Why wouldn't this work?

[Darth Servo]

Well I wouldn't want to defend any rabid trekkie fantasies, but E-nil was suffering from power problems and Photon Torps were out of questions due to the Antimatter neutralization field.

What? I thought they couldn't warp away because the machine's weapons dmaged their warp drive.

[Lord Revan]

Well I wouldn't want to defend any rabid trekkie fantasies, but E-nil was suffering from power problems and Photon Torps were out of questions due to the Antimatter neutralization field.

What? I thought they couldn't warp away because the machine's weapons dmaged their warp drive.

that too, but the main reason was due some sort of Antimatter neutralization field it's never explainend why the Doomsday machine "deactivated" the AM fuel, but it's probaly for the best that way.

[Darth Servo]

that too, but the main reason was due some sort of Antimatter neutralization field it's never explainend why the Doomsday machine "deactivated" the AM fuel, but it's probaly for the best that way.

They saved those kind of explanations for Voyager.

Anyway, wasn't the machine's own weapon "pure anti-proton"? Why wasn't that deactivated as well?

[Lord Revan]

that too, but the main reason was due some sort of Antimatter neutralization field it's never explainend why the Doomsday machine "deactivated" the AM fuel, but it's probaly for the best that way.

They saved those kind of explanations for Voyager.

Anyway, wasn't the machine's own weapon "pure anti-proton"? Why wasn't that deactivated as well?

who knows, perhaps the field only affect other ships, but not the weapon itself.

[Darth Servo]

who knows, perhaps the field only affect other ships, but not the weapon itself.

Perhaps the crew of the Enterprise was full of it when they gave that "antimatter deactivation" explanation?

[Lord Revan]

who knows, perhaps the field only affect other ships, but not the weapon itself.

Perhaps the crew of the Enterprise was full of it when they gave that "antimatter deactivation" explanation?

it's possible also, all we know is that the ship was losing power even before it was hit.

[Darth Servo]

it's possible also, all we know is that the ship was losing power even before it was hit.

And yet still had sufficient power to fire several phaser shots at the thing. But then the Constelation had a couple shots too and had nothing but fusion fed impulse engines. Still, phasers can't be all that powerful though.

[Connor MacLeod]

Thoughts:

1.) IIRC they don't usually employ warp engines to power their weapons systems (wasn't that a big deal in destroying that asteroidn in ST1?)
so the absence of antimatter might not make a qualitative difference (phaser fire was ineffective, and we'd know the capabilities of phasers relative to photorps.)

2.) IIRC the starships were fairly close to the planetkiller when this "effect" occured. So why not use proximity detonations of torpedoes? Its not that great a distance (a few ship lengths)

And the whole point as to how "anti-proton" beams could work when other antimatter couldn't is a valid matter. It might suggest further definite limits to how far this "field" effect operates.

Another possiblity is that the Doomsday devicee deactivates the field when firing its own weapons - of course, they could simply rig torps to detonate when the field is down, and then incite the ship to fire on one vessel or another...


Another note - recall that this is an "omni-directional" blast occuring in the mouth of the PK - so only part of the ~100 Mt "detonation" will be directed into the Doomsday weapon.

Oh yeah.. and of course the fact 100 MT is enough to destroy an unshielded starship is enough to put limits on phaser fire, for example. And possibly on torpedoes as well.

[brianeyci]

Could the Klingon ship in TNG that fired a bioweapon in the Progniters (sp) episode be considered an example of General Order 24, only the Klingon version?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Oh, about the splashing antimatter strategy -- torpedoes don't work that way. Uranium235 posted screenshots proving that torpedoes do not contain antimatter but are injected with it as they are fired. Numerous incidents including in VOY when torpedo casings were stolen support the ST:II screenshots. The "antimatter disruption field" probably fucked up things so badly that they couldn't arm the torpedoes. They probably didn't have a delivery system like in TNG BOBW II, when Ent-D used an antimatter spread to splash antimatter around the Borg cube.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

Another note - recall that this is an "omni-directional" blast occuring in the mouth of the PK - so only part of the ~100 Mt "detonation" will be directed into the Doomsday weapon.

The explosion of the USS Constelation was pretty omni-directional too.