Order 66 AU

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2005-11-23 11:37am

Right before Palpy issues Order 66 to the clone troopers throughout the galaxy, by an act of plot, a republic intelligence agent uncovers the truth about his secret identity as Lord Sidious, his hand in he creation of the Confederacy, his whole master plan. This intell agent is being pursued by Palpy's royal guards, and manages to get a transmission off to all Republic forces, on an authorized channel, and sends the information.

Does anything change?
Do the clones still kill their Jedi Generals?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-23 11:43am

I'd say not. If they think there's a chance the Chancellor is a traitor to the Republic, they'll not obey him. Their loyalty to him is because he is the head of state, not because he's Palpatine. If he's being impeached, they'd probably want to get their orders direct from the Senate.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-11-23 11:49am

This I find to be an interesting question -- who were the clonetroopers REALLY loyal to? (Ex: Star Wars: Empire #1-4 feature clone stormtroopers loyal to a traitorous Moff, NOT the Emperor, and since it is EU canon we know that in at least in the SWEU we have at least one incident.)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-23 11:52am

Edward Yee wrote:This I find to be an interesting question -- who were the clonetroopers REALLY loyal to? (Ex: Star Wars: Empire #1-4 feature clone stormtroopers loyal to a traitorous Moff, NOT the Emperor, and since it is EU canon we know that in at least in the SWEU we have at least one incident.)

Also remember those were made as a batch for the moffs, and during the reign of the Empire. So literally they are a seperate batch that are not part and parcel with the regular Stormtroopers.

As for the question, it would snag a lot since Palpatine did require that he was the legititmate power in the Republic.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-23 11:56am

In this case, there's semi-relevant preceedent.

Dark Lord Spoilers; The Clone Commandos in this book refused Order 66, and ambushed fellow troopers to stop it, because they didn't think the order had come from the Chancellor. If the clones as a whole were aware of the possibility of the chancellor also being the head of the Seperatists, they'd probably not hold any loyalty to him - they'd assume (accurately) he'd betrayed the republic.

To quote Lama Su, 'This army is for the Republic' - not the Jedi, and not Palpatine. If the Chancellor committed high treason against the republic, as he assuredly did, I can't see why they'd take orders from him.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-11-23 12:06pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Also remember those were made as a batch for the moffs, and during the reign of the Empire. So literally they are a seperate batch that are not part and parcel with the regular Stormtroopers.

Agreed. I was citing it as an example to prove (indisputably) that within Star Wars EU canon, clonetroopers could be created without being directly tied to the person of Palpatine, if only as an example that could defeat attempts to bring that argument in.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-23 12:08pm

Edward Yee wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Also remember those were made as a batch for the moffs, and during the reign of the Empire. So literally they are a seperate batch that are not part and parcel with the regular Stormtroopers.
Agreed. I was citing it as an example to prove (indisputably) that within Star Wars EU canon, clonetroopers could be created without being directly tied to the person of Palpatine, if only as an example that could defeat attempts to bring that argument in.

True and as Necron pointed out, even in AoTC it's is said that the Clone Army was for the Republic, who's head at the time was Palpatine.

Thus if anything should disrupt said alliance of Palps and the Republic, and confirm that he is a traitor or some such, the clones will not obey any such order.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-11-23 12:15pm

Ghost Rider wrote:True and as Necron pointed out, even in AoTC it's is said that the Clone Army was for the Republic, who's head at the time was Palpatine.

Thus if anything should disrupt said alliance of Palps and the Republic, and confirm that he is a traitor or some such, the clones will not obey any such order.

Wonder just how the loyalty was maintained after the declaration of the Galactic Empire; the state itself remained and so the clonetroopers didn't mind the change of name and head of state's title?

(Amusing; I'm typing this during a class discussion on illiberal democracies vs. liberal autocracies.

)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-23 12:22pm

Edward Yee wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:True and as Necron pointed out, even in AoTC it's is said that the Clone Army was for the Republic, who's head at the time was Palpatine.

Thus if anything should disrupt said alliance of Palps and the Republic, and confirm that he is a traitor or some such, the clones will not obey any such order.
Wonder just how the loyalty was maintained after the declaration of the Galactic Empire; the state itself remained and so the clonetroopers didn't mind the change of name and head of state's title?

(Amusing; I'm typing this during a class discussion on illiberal democracies vs. liberal autocracies. )

Probably not. The transition was of one where the Jedi were traitors to the Republic, and that it had a name change. In fact when you look how Palpatine made it that the Senate was almost all behind him, it would be a completely legitimate act.

The intricacies of this change were likely irrelevant to the clone troopers as a whole.

tumbletom · Post by **tumbletom** » 2005-11-23 01:11pm

Do you think the clone troopers would have hunted Palpatine down if this was the case?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-23 03:56pm

tumbletom wrote:Do you think the clone troopers would have hunted Palpatine down if this was the case?

Oooh. I want to see the 501st chasing Palpatine down through Coruscant's streets.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-23 04:22pm

NecronLord wrote:
tumbletom wrote:Do you think the clone troopers would have hunted Palpatine down if this was the case?
Oooh. I want to see the 501st chasing Palpatine down through Coruscant's streets.

A mod for Battlefront 2

.

Chase down the old geezer and knock off his toadies.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2005-11-23 07:35pm

I don't know if the 501st would have chased palps through the streets. In the game, they were a unit specially chosen for their loyalty to the Chancellor, rather than to the Jedi or the senate. And the veteran voicing the cutscenes seemed to know that Order 66 was coming, even before Palpatine's "Assasination attempt" excuse was made public. It's possible they were loyal to him, and him alone.

Slight change to the OP. The info gets out, but the 501st either doesn't see it, or doesn't care due to the reasons specified above. Before anyone can stop them, they march on the jedi temple and make with the extermination. Within hours, holo-images of the 501st slaughtering Jedi kids are broadcast to the rest of the Clone Army. What happens?

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-11-23 07:52pm

Darksider wrote:Slight change to the OP. The info gets out, but the 501st either doesn't see it, or doesn't care due to the reasons specified above. Before anyone can stop them, they march on the jedi temple and make with the extermination. Within hours, holo-images of the 501st slaughtering Jedi kids are broadcast to the rest of the Clone Army. What happens?

Assuming that enough of the clone army disbelieves the validity of Order 66, the rest go and prolly attack the 501st.

Ekiqa · Post by **Ekiqa** » 2005-11-23 09:48pm

Well, if the rest of the army hadn't killed their commanders, the Jedi in the field would most likely lead attacks on the 501st and Palpy.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-24 06:57am

Darksider wrote:Slight change to the OP. The info gets out, but the 501st either doesn't see it, or doesn't care due to the reasons specified above. Before anyone can stop them, they march on the jedi temple and make with the extermination. Within hours, holo-images of the 501st slaughtering Jedi kids are broadcast to the rest of the Clone Army. What happens?

The 501st are good, but they're not good enough to survive say, being shat upon by a few million other troopers.

Darth Sephiroth · Post by **Darth Sephiroth** » 2005-11-24 09:03am

Would the 501st be as effective if Palpatine got assassinated...if not, find a clawdite jedi and assassinate him...or do what I suggested a while back and program a crafts autopilot to kamikazi into him

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2005-11-24 09:14pm

There are two possiblities nobody's considering.

First, the clones might like Palpatine's plan, because it would mean they get to spend their lives fighting. They're purpose in life is to be soldiers, so a leader who will always have a battle for them to fight might appeal to them. Also, since military life is all they know, the idea of a simple, absolute system of government might seem logical to them.

Second, the people might like the idea of removing the Republic. We don't know much about what regular people think about the events of the movies. They might hate the politics of the Republic and want a simpler system. Palpatine could try to spin his revealed plan to be for the good of the galaxy, since the Republic has failed. He could even mix in his desire to dispose of the Jedi, declaring that the Jedi wrecked the Republic in a bid for power.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-11-25 01:21am

The level of political education or knowledge is an interesting point. How much education or knowledge were they given about the Republic? Do they care about the form and tradition of the Republic? How up to date are they? Are they even allowed to watch the news?

Hedgehog's Roommate · Post by **Hedgehog's Roommate** » 2005-11-25 02:49am

Something I haven't heard mentioned. It's obvious that the 501st knew about the plan to kill the Jedi (they explicitly say this in BFII). The 501st were often broken up sometimes as squads or platoons attached to some other unit. Sometimes members were reassigned to other units, but brought back into the 501st just before the purge began.

It could be they were out there "spreading the word" to the other clones. That way when the time came they would know what to do. Could it be this is where they learned about Order66? Could it be it was spread by word of mouth? That way there is no risk of the Jedi finding it in the training program at Kamino.

Palps also had the Coruscant Shocktroopers as a completely loyal unit. Like the 501st they were trained at Coruscant under Palps supervision. So he has two fanatically loyal units with him there on Coruscant. They might be able to buy him enough time to get him off-planet.

B5B7 · Post by **B5B7** » 2005-11-25 07:45am

In regard to what the knowledge or viewpoint of normal citizen was - in the original movie [SWIV] prior to meeting Obi Wan Kenobi it was Luke's ambition to join the Imperial spaceforce - so he obviously wasn't too worried about the Emperor's rule at that time.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-11-25 08:16am

B5B7 wrote:In regard to what the knowledge or viewpoint of normal citizen was - in the original movie [SWIV] prior to meeting Obi Wan Kenobi it was Luke's ambition to join the Imperial spaceforce - so he obviously wasn't too worried about the Emperor's rule at that time.

And through the Republic navy who also have been alerted who Palpitine is and have most of the ships crewed by clones?

B5B7 · Post by **B5B7** » 2005-11-25 08:59am

Are you sure about that? I thought he wanted to go to an imperial academy - that's the impression I got from the movie anyway - can you provide data on Republic related aspect?

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2005-11-25 10:06am

Luke did fill out an application to an academy, presumably an Imperial one; he hadn't yet sent it because his uncle needed him to help on the farm. I doubt his motivation for this was patriotism for the Empire, but to find a way off Tattooine. Many of his friends had done the same already, and the novelization has Biggs planning to slip away to join up with the Rebellion on his way to the academy. Luke may have been contemplating doing the same before he met Obi-Wan.

Edit: I am not sure how typical Luke's opinion of the Empire was of his town, his world, or the entire galaxy. He is an idealistic kid, and a Force-sensitive one to boot. If I had to ask anyone in the movies in an effort to get a worm's eye view of what happened, I'd ask Owen and Beru.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2005-11-25 10:09am

the SW: Republic Commandos Novel also implies that at least some parts in and around the clone army knew about Order 66

I don't know the exact quote anymore, but a clone remembers his tutor talking something about a "terrible fate" the clones would have in the future