Hi everybody! I'm a first time poster long time lurker on the forums. Actually the reason I registered is to get a opinion on this idea I thought up. Also if this was already covered and beat to death my apologies in advance.
Heres how it started I was watching Independence Day while browsing the SD.net forums and the thought popped into my head of how the ID Aliens would fare against the Star Wars universe and Star Trek universe. So I started paying careful attention to the details of the movie to try to access the power of the ID Aliens
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General Knowledge of the Alien threat:
The ID aliens are a spacefaring race that travel from planet to planet and dismantles them for resources. From the fill we can ascert that they possess atleast 12-16 ships possibly upwards to 30 as well as a central mothership. We do not know whether this represents the entire Alien race or just a single fleet.
Analysis of the Alien fleet:
First we have to figure out the exact size of the alien battleship. The film stated they had a radius of 8 city blocks with means the diameter is 16 blocks long. Since the ship is circular everything should be even on all sides. Now a mile is about 20 city blocks so the ships diameter is just over 75% of a mile. The film does not mention the height of the battleship but based on the images it appears to be atleast a few hundred feet tall.
Weapons Systems: The ship posesses two known weapons. I will discuss the tactical weapon first then the strategic. Within the interior of the ship appear to be a multitude of energy based "guns." Since we only see these weapons used once against hovering choppers its difficult to tell how useful they would be against fast moving targets.
Strategic Superlaser- This is the primary mode of attack for the ID aliens. The superlaser is deployed from a central position below the ship. The weapon takes approx. 10-30 seconds to charge before firing.
The laser appears to cause a rolling wave of explosions as it slowly expands outwards from ground zero. This is shown in two scenes when the dog barely outruns the fireball in the tunnel and when Air Force One avoids it on take off.
We know that the superlaser is capable of destroying entire cities, with the examples given visually being NY, LA, and DC. We hear that the cities are totally destroyed and see proof of this. Now its impossible to discern how much destruction the lasers caused. We know they destroyed the cities themselves but not if they destroyed LA County or the other Boroughs of New York. We do however see the statue of liberty destroyed which is about half a mile out from Manhattan.
I feel it would be safe to assume that the damage estimate is 10-20 radus mile from the impact point.
Note: This beam is also the ships biggest weakspot should the shields be done. An attack against the charging weapon can and will result in the destruction of the ship. It appears a single missile is capable of initiating the destruction of the ship if it detonates on the superlasers equipment.
Additional Defenses: Each battleship holds a compliment of fighters which numbers either in the high hundreds or low thousands. In the Earth's atmosphere they appear equal in performance to modern military fighters. However we know they are capable of space travel do to the fact a fighter is the spaceship that crashed at roswell.
Shielding: All battleships and fighters possess both particle and energy shields. However a major flaw in the system is that the shield is not provided by each ship individual it is projected from the mothership to each individual battleship which then projects shielding to each fighter.
Even though the fighters possess shielding they are still subject to being thrown off course from hits on the shield which is shown in the first aerial combat scene when an F-15 fighter crashes into a alien fighter sending it spiraling off course.
We only see two scenes where attacks are made against the shields. The first attacks are made by squadrons of fighters firing standard AAM missiles against the shielding with obviously no effect.
The second scene is when they attempt to use a tactical nuclear device against the ships. The nuke is mounted atop a Tomahawk cruise missile and is fired from a B-52. According to a quick check at fas.org and Globalsecurity the Tomahawk tact nuke is a 550 kiloton warhead. Of course not all the force will be directed against the ship/shield. It can be assumed that 25% of the blast was directed against the shield. This tells us that the shielding can withstand atleast 137.5 kilotons detonating against it. Of course it is same to presume that the shielding can withstand much much more then that.
Armor: This is the most difficult to observe since the weapons deployed against the battleships were basic Air to Air Missiles and caused minimal damage to the hulls of the ships. The missiles were however capable of destroying the enemy fighters.
We do however see the detonation of a nuclear weapon(yield unknown) from within the mothership, which results in the destruction of the ship. But it is not known whether the nuclear weapons is the sole cause for this or the nuke just set off a chain reaction of events.
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Conclussion:
Wow that took awhile to write *cracks knuckes*
Now comes the time when I state how the ID aliens would fare against the Federation and against the Empire. I'll do the Empire first.
Now against the Empire the ID aliens do not stand a chance they would be utterly steamrolled if they attempted to harvest a planet from both sheer numbers and massive firepower. However if these ships managed to get within the atmosphere of a planet it becomes a distnict possibility that the Empire will cause more damage to the planets destroying the ships then the aliens would ever be able to cause. Of course the speed in which Imperial ships travel and the presence of sector fleets significantly decreases the possibility they would even make it into orbit before being destroyed.
Against the Federation I feel they would fare slightly better but would still lose in the long run. Because of slow speed of warp technology it would be possible for the ID aliens to knock out a few remote colony worlds before a starfleet presence can be mobilized. Of course following typical starfleet procedures they would only deploy 1 ship initially to the attacked world where it would be outnumbered by atleast 16 to 1(only concering capships.) Even if they ID battleships do not possess a reliable anti starship weapon the sheer numbers of fighters that can deployed would pose a significant threat to the federation ship.
Though once the fed gets their act together after losing a few worlds and a couple of spaceships they would be able to organize an actual fleet which would be able to defeat the new alien threat. Of course this victory would not be as total as the Imperial Victory.
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So what does everyone think? I know its kinda stupid, but I had a serious case of boredom and actually spent alot of time thinking this up and since my friends would look at me like I'm crazy if I brought it up to them I decided to post here.
Star Wars/Trek vs. "Independence Day" Aliens
Moderator: NecronLord
Re: Star Wars/Trek vs. "Independence Day" Aliens
First, welcome to the forum, that was a nice piece of analysis for an initial post!LongVin wrote:Because of slow speed of warp technology it would be possible for the ID aliens to knock out a few remote colony worlds before a starfleet presence can be mobilized.
Second, is a canon speed for the ID4 ships' FTL drive established?Well, there are a couple huge problems the ID4 aliens have:
1.) Their computer technology is a joke, even when compared to Starfleet's. A 20th century humman, equiped with only one computer, managed to create (in a few hours) a computer virus capable of instantaneously and completely disabling a critical defensive system (potentially their entire system).
2.) Their armor is next to useless, again, even compared to Starfleet *standard* armor. Basic incediary devices easily overcome it and produce appreciable damage (once the shields are down).
3.) When exposed, the main weapon of the city ships is extremely easy to destroy (one photon torpodo would do it) which creates a chain reaction that will destroy the entire ship (makes Warp Cores almost look safe!).
4.) Their fighter weapons are not particlary powerful. Against modern fighter craft they don't appear to do much more damage than a modern missle. Of course, they would have dialed the power down, so this is not conclusive by any means.
The only thing that *might* save them is if their shield technology is far superior to anything in the Trek Universe. Anyone care to take a stab at that?
Miles Teg
1.) Their computer technology is a joke, even when compared to Starfleet's. A 20th century humman, equiped with only one computer, managed to create (in a few hours) a computer virus capable of instantaneously and completely disabling a critical defensive system (potentially their entire system).
2.) Their armor is next to useless, again, even compared to Starfleet *standard* armor. Basic incediary devices easily overcome it and produce appreciable damage (once the shields are down).
3.) When exposed, the main weapon of the city ships is extremely easy to destroy (one photon torpodo would do it) which creates a chain reaction that will destroy the entire ship (makes Warp Cores almost look safe!).
4.) Their fighter weapons are not particlary powerful. Against modern fighter craft they don't appear to do much more damage than a modern missle. Of course, they would have dialed the power down, so this is not conclusive by any means.
The only thing that *might* save them is if their shield technology is far superior to anything in the Trek Universe. Anyone care to take a stab at that?
Miles Teg
Now I am become death -- the shatterer of worlds...
-- Oppenheimer 1945
-- Oppenheimer 1945
For the Feds... serious problem on their hands. ID4 mothership is 800 km on its long axis and 500 km on its shorter axis. Each city destroyer is 24 km. In comparison a Borg cube is 3 km by 3 km. Just a glance at the scale...
(both from ST minutiae)
...that's not accounting for mass either. And there's 83 of those fuckers the Federation has to defeat, not to mention the mothership itself. Fortunately the aliens are easy to defeat.
They don't seem to have any weapons on the city killer other than on the front where the signalling helicopter was shot. Alien fighters accelerate as well as F-18's and move in a predictable flight path. Their aim is pretty abysmal too, remember Will Smith flying through the canyon. They should be easy for Federation Peregrine fighters to tail and destroy. A phaser shot at tens of kilotons should destroy the alien fighters.
The only counter-argument I can think of is when Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum fly off from Earth to the mothership, however long that takes and one can calculate an insane acceleration from that. But for some reason the alien fighters don't accelerate like that when dogfighting. I am also not sure whether there was a cut.
I would fly hundreds of Federation capital ships in formation under the city-killer, like a WWII bomber squadron to provide 360 degree phaser cover and overlapping fields of fire (assuming the aliens don't go so close to the capital ships that the Federation ships shoot each other). As the alien fighters pop out they get picked off and their puny sub-ton (just eye-balling from the explosions in the chase scene) "green shit" can't hurt Federation shields. As soon as the main weapon opens up, Akiras Sovereigns Galaxy and Excelsior fire volley after volley of photon torpedoes into the main weapon destroying the city-killer.
There's no proof that the mothership actually has any weapons at all. The alien mothership will have to rely on its fighters with sub-ton green glowy shit. Needless to say their weapons won't be a problem for the Federation ships. The Federation fleet can tail the 800 km monstrosity and fire at will, or concentrate fire on one of the space doors and try and break through.
As for the speed, a Galaxy can outrun the mothership, see BOBW II where Enterprise-D goes from Saturn to Earth.
Brian
(both from ST minutiae)
...that's not accounting for mass either. And there's 83 of those fuckers the Federation has to defeat, not to mention the mothership itself. Fortunately the aliens are easy to defeat.
They don't seem to have any weapons on the city killer other than on the front where the signalling helicopter was shot. Alien fighters accelerate as well as F-18's and move in a predictable flight path. Their aim is pretty abysmal too, remember Will Smith flying through the canyon. They should be easy for Federation Peregrine fighters to tail and destroy. A phaser shot at tens of kilotons should destroy the alien fighters.
The only counter-argument I can think of is when Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum fly off from Earth to the mothership, however long that takes and one can calculate an insane acceleration from that. But for some reason the alien fighters don't accelerate like that when dogfighting. I am also not sure whether there was a cut.
I would fly hundreds of Federation capital ships in formation under the city-killer, like a WWII bomber squadron to provide 360 degree phaser cover and overlapping fields of fire (assuming the aliens don't go so close to the capital ships that the Federation ships shoot each other). As the alien fighters pop out they get picked off and their puny sub-ton (just eye-balling from the explosions in the chase scene) "green shit" can't hurt Federation shields. As soon as the main weapon opens up, Akiras Sovereigns Galaxy and Excelsior fire volley after volley of photon torpedoes into the main weapon destroying the city-killer.
There's no proof that the mothership actually has any weapons at all. The alien mothership will have to rely on its fighters with sub-ton green glowy shit. Needless to say their weapons won't be a problem for the Federation ships. The Federation fleet can tail the 800 km monstrosity and fire at will, or concentrate fire on one of the space doors and try and break through.
As for the speed, a Galaxy can outrun the mothership, see BOBW II where Enterprise-D goes from Saturn to Earth.
Brian
Unforunetely no. But I am operating under the principle they would come out of unknown space already at the extreme border of Federation Space since they have never been encountered before. So they will have the initial advantage of coming out of nowhere even if the FTL drive is equal to warp or less.
Also from the film we learn the aliens sent fighters as advanced scouts to earth 50 years before. And since the fighter seems to be quite bare/small judging from the interior shots it obviously isnt designed for long term space travel.
Now 2 counters to this can be
1. The extreme time lapse between the scouting mission and the actual attack.
-Rebutal- The aliens use a "slash and burn" technique when they attack a planet. So obviously they are taking as much from the planets as possible discarding what is not easilly gained is probably left behind. The aliens may of had a 100 planets between them and earth in that time.
Also if the aliens had an extremely slow FTL system they would be seen coming into the system. From the movies they're is no warning until the satelites start failing because the aliens have jammed them and effectively taken control over the satelite network over Earth.
2. Perhaps the Aliens enter into some form of statis have a longer life expectency or do not need a traditional source of nutrient which allows them to go on long space missions without the need for stores.
-Rebutal- Once again it appears from the general design of the fighter that there would not be room for such a device. Also when they are at Area 51 the head researcher makes the claim that the Aliens are just like us. They're bodies are quite fragile, and without the technology gap they would be equal to humans.
So based on my opinion they have a FTL drive atleast equal to warp.
Now of course if the aliens have a poor FTL drive it will hamper them in their war against the federation, but they will still be able to complete their missions in the initial system they attack just from the shock factor.
Also from the film we learn the aliens sent fighters as advanced scouts to earth 50 years before. And since the fighter seems to be quite bare/small judging from the interior shots it obviously isnt designed for long term space travel.
Now 2 counters to this can be
1. The extreme time lapse between the scouting mission and the actual attack.
-Rebutal- The aliens use a "slash and burn" technique when they attack a planet. So obviously they are taking as much from the planets as possible discarding what is not easilly gained is probably left behind. The aliens may of had a 100 planets between them and earth in that time.
Also if the aliens had an extremely slow FTL system they would be seen coming into the system. From the movies they're is no warning until the satelites start failing because the aliens have jammed them and effectively taken control over the satelite network over Earth.
2. Perhaps the Aliens enter into some form of statis have a longer life expectency or do not need a traditional source of nutrient which allows them to go on long space missions without the need for stores.
-Rebutal- Once again it appears from the general design of the fighter that there would not be room for such a device. Also when they are at Area 51 the head researcher makes the claim that the Aliens are just like us. They're bodies are quite fragile, and without the technology gap they would be equal to humans.
So based on my opinion they have a FTL drive atleast equal to warp.
Now of course if the aliens have a poor FTL drive it will hamper them in their war against the federation, but they will still be able to complete their missions in the initial system they attack just from the shock factor.
Damn. I grossly underestimated the size. I was basing it on the data given in the movie stating they were only 8 city blocks.brianeyci wrote:For the Feds... serious problem on their hands. ID4 mothership is 800 km on its long axis and 500 km on its shorter axis. Each city destroyer is 24 km. In comparison a Borg cube is 3 km by 3 km. Just a glance at the scale...
(both from ST minutiae)
...that's not accounting for mass either. And there's 83 of those fuckers the Federation has to defeat, not to mention the mothership itself. Fortunately the aliens are easy to defeat.
They don't seem to have any weapons on the city killer other than on the front where the signalling helicopter was shot. Alien fighters accelerate as well as F-18's and move in a predictable flight path. Their aim is pretty abysmal too, remember Will Smith flying through the canyon. They should be easy for Federation Peregrine fighters to tail and destroy. A phaser shot at tens of kilotons should destroy the alien fighters.
The only counter-argument I can think of is when Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum fly off from Earth to the mothership, however long that takes and one can calculate an insane acceleration from that. But for some reason the alien fighters don't accelerate like that when dogfighting. I am also not sure whether there was a cut.
I would fly hundreds of Federation capital ships in formation under the city-killer, like a WWII bomber squadron to provide 360 degree phaser cover and overlapping fields of fire (assuming the aliens don't go so close to the capital ships that the Federation ships shoot each other). As the alien fighters pop out they get picked off and their puny sub-ton (just eye-balling from the explosions in the chase scene) "green shit" can't hurt Federation shields. As soon as the main weapon opens up, Akiras Sovereigns Galaxy and Excelsior fire volley after volley of photon torpedoes into the main weapon destroying the city-killer.
There's no proof that the mothership actually has any weapons at all. The alien mothership will have to rely on its fighters with sub-ton green glowy shit. Needless to say their weapons won't be a problem for the Federation ships. The Federation fleet can tail the 800 km monstrosity and fire at will, or concentrate fire on one of the space doors and try and break through.
As for the speed, a Galaxy can outrun the mothership, see BOBW II where Enterprise-D goes from Saturn to Earth.
Brian
As for the alien fighter performance we can account that to the fact they were operating in the atmosphere in a small thearte of operations. It does them no good if they are flying 5 thousand MPH and passing over the fighters before they can even get a shot. Also a turn at that speed would take them hundreds of miles off course.
1. True. I completely forgot about the computer parts. However you can say that the aliens had to dumb down there technology in some effects to effect the satelites, they would have to use a language that the Earth satelites could understand(since they hijacked them to shield there ships and serve as comm relays) making it somewhat easier to dechiper the code.Miles Teg wrote:Well, there are a couple huge problems the ID4 aliens have:
1.) Their computer technology is a joke, even when compared to Starfleet's. A 20th century humman, equiped with only one computer, managed to create (in a few hours) a computer virus capable of instantaneously and completely disabling a critical defensive system (potentially their entire system).
2.) Their armor is next to useless, again, even compared to Starfleet *standard* armor. Basic incediary devices easily overcome it and produce appreciable damage (once the shields are down).
3.) When exposed, the main weapon of the city ships is extremely easy to destroy (one photon torpodo would do it) which creates a chain reaction that will destroy the entire ship (makes Warp Cores almost look safe!).
4.) Their fighter weapons are not particlary powerful. Against modern fighter craft they don't appear to do much more damage than a modern missle. Of course, they would have dialed the power down, so this is not conclusive by any means.
The only thing that *might* save them is if their shield technology is far superior to anything in the Trek Universe. Anyone care to take a stab at that?
Miles Teg
2. True dat. Of course against a massive ship it will take a lot of volleys to get through the goodies inside.
3.I think even a ships phaser array would be able to take it down considering a fighter jet smashing into it was shown to destroy the ship and it was implied that the others were taken down by a single missile.
4. Well Star Trek has a few cases like that where the power doesn't relate properly to what is shown on screen. So its probably dialed down.
That's no excuse, sensors. Because of relative velocity if the alien fighters accelerate as quickly as they did with Will Smith and Goldblum they won't be able to hit shit. When the alien fighter was chasing Will Smith and moving just that fast, it couldn't lock onto the fighter. The only way they could hit reliably at a higher acceleraton is if the fighters fly in formation in straight predictable paths making an "attack run" against a Federation fleet making themselves easy targets.
Face it alien weapons (other than the main gun) suck, assuming ten photon torpedoes to bring down a Galaxy (a conservative estimate since in the Dominion war upgraded Galaxies seem indestructable) that's already beyond the green shit the alien fighters throw.
Brian
Face it alien weapons (other than the main gun) suck, assuming ten photon torpedoes to bring down a Galaxy (a conservative estimate since in the Dominion war upgraded Galaxies seem indestructable) that's already beyond the green shit the alien fighters throw.
Brian
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The ID4 Motherships had terrible armoring, same with the fighters. Modern Air-Air missiles didn't just knock them out of the sky, it CRUMPLED the alien fighters like if they were of similar material to a modern fighter, or had similar combustables.
When they start lobbing air-air missiles at the mothership (what where they trying to accomplish?!?), even those little things created big glowing holes in the side of the ship, which looked like molten girders and interior structure. Given such armoring, Photon torpedos seem like perfectly suitable weapons against them.
As for the alien shields? Not much we know, aside from the capacity to survive a tactical nuclear impact as a lower limit. I think that'll be the deciding factor. Their 'city-killer superweapon' is not that impressive at all.
When they start lobbing air-air missiles at the mothership (what where they trying to accomplish?!?), even those little things created big glowing holes in the side of the ship, which looked like molten girders and interior structure. Given such armoring, Photon torpedos seem like perfectly suitable weapons against them.
As for the alien shields? Not much we know, aside from the capacity to survive a tactical nuclear impact as a lower limit. I think that'll be the deciding factor. Their 'city-killer superweapon' is not that impressive at all.
The mothership being ginormous isn't really a problem for the feds. (In fact, it's probably an advantage to the feds, given the general lack maneuverability it demonstates). In ID4 the ship is destroyed by a single nuclear device (which aparently set off a chain reaction that ultimately destroyed the ship)of a non-impressive size (certainly less of a yield than a p-torp given it's size). All the feds have to do is gain access to the inside of the ship (probably fairly easy given the lack of competence in the computer engineers of the mothership), scan for a vulerable part of the ship (how easy this would be is up for debate), and they are set.
Also, I don't recall that the shield were distributed through the sats, but rather that the virus spread to all the ships and knocked out all the shield generators. Am I incorrect in this?
Miles Teg
There's no reason they'd have to dumb down their entire system. At most, they'd have to build a system that could bridge there systems with the earth technology. Furthermore, if they didn't bother to encrypt their signal that speaks to their total incompotence as well. =) In any case, didn't they have to go up to the mothership in order to implant the virus directly anyway, thus negating your entire argument (if I understand your argument that is)?LongVin wrote:However you can say that the aliens had to dumb down there technology in some effects to effect the satelites, they would have to use a language that the Earth satelites could understand(since they hijacked them to shield there ships and serve as comm relays) making it somewhat easier to dechiper the code.
Also, I don't recall that the shield were distributed through the sats, but rather that the virus spread to all the ships and knocked out all the shield generators. Am I incorrect in this?
Miles Teg
Now I am become death -- the shatterer of worlds...
-- Oppenheimer 1945
-- Oppenheimer 1945
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The shields were independantly generated by the motherships, the orbiting super-mothership, and the fighters. The virus apparently knocked them all down, since the aliens have no firewalls. Or Norton Antivirus. Guess they trusted mac compatability a little too much.
Lesse. A few things. The Super-Duper mothership was destroyed by a nuclear bomb fired at what appeared to be a hangar's control tower. Not an engine or anything like that, but a spire in the middle of a big open space where fighters were stored. That probably wouldn't be too close to any critical system like a powerplant (assuming they're smart enough to put their power sources in protected areas), and since the big hangar was depressurized (fighters coming and going), em... We'd probably have to say hard radiation killed the ship... from that isolated docking tower. Ouch.
Given that the alien fighter had issues outrunning a blast wave of expelled gasses from the supership exploding, it doesn't seem likely they have too phenominal of an acceleration profile in vacuum either.
Lesse. A few things. The Super-Duper mothership was destroyed by a nuclear bomb fired at what appeared to be a hangar's control tower. Not an engine or anything like that, but a spire in the middle of a big open space where fighters were stored. That probably wouldn't be too close to any critical system like a powerplant (assuming they're smart enough to put their power sources in protected areas), and since the big hangar was depressurized (fighters coming and going), em... We'd probably have to say hard radiation killed the ship... from that isolated docking tower. Ouch.
Given that the alien fighter had issues outrunning a blast wave of expelled gasses from the supership exploding, it doesn't seem likely they have too phenominal of an acceleration profile in vacuum either.
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Maybe the fighter bay had live ordnance that reacted? Maybe the bigass momma ship's powered by a ginormous Galaxy-style warp core.
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I'm not sure anymore, its been years since i saw it, but if i recall before they went up i think Jeff Goldblum said something about firing the nuke into their "power core"? 
It was something like, "If we fire it into the core, then it'll filter down to all the other ships" explaining why their city-destroyers blew up too...i think...
I'll have to find teh movie and watch it again.
The 8 city blocks refered to the huge command tower/tail/thing on the city-destroyers that looked like a tailfin, i remember that much.
It was something like, "If we fire it into the core, then it'll filter down to all the other ships" explaining why their city-destroyers blew up too...i think...I'll have to find teh movie and watch it again.
The 8 city blocks refered to the huge command tower/tail/thing on the city-destroyers that looked like a tailfin, i remember that much.
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Their city destroyers blew up because without their shields, they got PWNed. If it was because of the space nuke, then that dumbass alien abductee farmer died in vain.
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The main alien weapon IIRC was a chain-reaction weapon. It hit the empire state building then the wave continued even after the city-killers stopped firing. Remember airforce 1 outran the explosion 
. One can presume that the city-killer main weapon might not be effective against shielded targets. Earth doesn't have any planetary or theatre shielding but archaeological outposts do and unless the mothership appears in orbit around Earth it may be fighting a colony with shields.
Brian
. One can presume that the city-killer main weapon might not be effective against shielded targets. Earth doesn't have any planetary or theatre shielding but archaeological outposts do and unless the mothership appears in orbit around Earth it may be fighting a colony with shields.Brian
We don't know the range on that city killer either. It could be argued that they were firing it at point blank range for intimidation purposes, but I don't believe so. Their entire attack was just designed to exterminate the indigenous population in order to have free access to any natural resources that were left.
If they were capable of long range fire, they could have kept their ships in much higher orbits and let fly at will.
It seems like their main weapons are designed to be used at ranges of a few hundred metres at most, and when it's locked to pointing in a single direction, on a ship as huge as the city destroyers, that means it will almost never be brought to bear on a Star Trek vessel.
Even if their shields hold up admirably against Trek weapons, they will be brought down by massed torpedo and phaser fire eventually, and then their ships will just get dissected.
I'm not even going to think about what Star Wars weaponry would do to them.
If they were capable of long range fire, they could have kept their ships in much higher orbits and let fly at will.
It seems like their main weapons are designed to be used at ranges of a few hundred metres at most, and when it's locked to pointing in a single direction, on a ship as huge as the city destroyers, that means it will almost never be brought to bear on a Star Trek vessel.
Even if their shields hold up admirably against Trek weapons, they will be brought down by massed torpedo and phaser fire eventually, and then their ships will just get dissected.
I'm not even going to think about what Star Wars weaponry would do to them.
Considering Jeff Goldblum was able to hack the ID4 aliens, I would not at all be surprised if the UFP would be able to do the same. Data or Spock (take your pick on Trek era) would have the shields down in an hour. Tops.
The city destroyers and fighters seemed no weaker than modern warships and fighters once their shields were down and don't seem to have any other weapons besides their big-fucking-ray-gun.
The only problem I was considering was the ID4 fighters might be too nimble but then I remembered modern aircraft were able to outrun those suckers.
Wow. Did we just find someone the UFP can actually trounce?
The city destroyers and fighters seemed no weaker than modern warships and fighters once their shields were down and don't seem to have any other weapons besides their big-fucking-ray-gun.
The only problem I was considering was the ID4 fighters might be too nimble but then I remembered modern aircraft were able to outrun those suckers.
Wow. Did we just find someone the UFP can actually trounce?
-A.L.
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence...Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
"If you're falling off a cliff you may as well try to fly, you've got nothing to lose." - John Sheridan (Babylon 5)
"Sometimes you got to roll the hard six." - William Adama (Battlestar Galactica)
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence...Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
"If you're falling off a cliff you may as well try to fly, you've got nothing to lose." - John Sheridan (Babylon 5)
"Sometimes you got to roll the hard six." - William Adama (Battlestar Galactica)
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Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
The only problem with hacking(while feasible and amazingly easy given the apparent access that they were given) is at least Earth had samples to work with. Unless the aliens are even dumber then we thought, no one in Starfleet is going to have that access immediately.
Still that says nothing of the fact they're weapons are less then ST's by a good number and their manuverability is nothing to write home about(and that's the fighter, not the lumbering ships).
The Federation really has nothing to worry about.
SW just laughs and sends in the smugglers to handle them.
Still that says nothing of the fact they're weapons are less then ST's by a good number and their manuverability is nothing to write home about(and that's the fighter, not the lumbering ships).
The Federation really has nothing to worry about.
SW just laughs and sends in the smugglers to handle them.
Last edited by Ghost Rider on 2005-12-24 01:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
That doesn't seem like a weapon at all. Perhaps the "weapon" is actually a drive of some sort, which happens to detrimentally affect everything behind it? I can see the ships maneuvering over the cities with secondary drives, and then igniting primary interstellar drives for an instant to wipe out the city.Vendetta wrote:We don't know the range on that city killer either. It could be argued that they were firing it at point blank range for intimidation purposes, but I don't believe so. Their entire attack was just designed to exterminate the indigenous population in order to have free access to any natural resources that were left.
If they were capable of long range fire, they could have kept their ships in much higher orbits and let fly at will.
It seems like their main weapons are designed to be used at ranges of a few hundred metres at most, and when it's locked to pointing in a single direction, on a ship as huge as the city destroyers, that means it will almost never be brought to bear on a Star Trek vessel.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
Prophet of Regret style, interesting idea.That doesn't seem like a weapon at all. Perhaps the "weapon" is actually a drive of some sort, which happens to detrimentally affect everything behind it? I can see the ships maneuvering over the cities with secondary drives, and then igniting primary interstellar drives for an instant to wipe out the city.
That aside, does anyone recall how deep Area 66 was supposed to be? The alien superweapon was apparently capable of penetrating through that much ground, most of which I assume to be solid rock.
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
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General Soontir Fel
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 449
- Joined: 2005-07-05 02:08pm
There's something that has been forgotten here.
The ID aliens got their asses handed to them (after the shields went down) by the combined military power of all the nations of modern Earth.
Does the 24th century ST Earth have thousands of combat shuttles ready to launch (even just atmosphere-capable ones)? If we go by canon evidence, no.
What are they going to do, have redshirts with phaser rifles fire at the saucer ships from the ground?
Transporters do provide an advantage, so (again, once the shields are down) they can beam troops in and try to take over. Can't really say how they'd do, since we have no idea how good the ID aliens are at ground combat, or what kind of weapons they have.[/i]
The ID aliens got their asses handed to them (after the shields went down) by the combined military power of all the nations of modern Earth.
Does the 24th century ST Earth have thousands of combat shuttles ready to launch (even just atmosphere-capable ones)? If we go by canon evidence, no.
What are they going to do, have redshirts with phaser rifles fire at the saucer ships from the ground?
Transporters do provide an advantage, so (again, once the shields are down) they can beam troops in and try to take over. Can't really say how they'd do, since we have no idea how good the ID aliens are at ground combat, or what kind of weapons they have.[/i]
Jesse Helms died on the 4th of July and the nation celebrated with fireworks, BBQs and a day off for everyone. -- Ed Brayton, Dispatches from the Culture Wars
"And a force-sensitive mandalorian female Bountyhunter, who is also the granddaughter of Darth Vader is as cool as it can get. Almost absolute zero." -- FTeik
"And a force-sensitive mandalorian female Bountyhunter, who is also the granddaughter of Darth Vader is as cool as it can get. Almost absolute zero." -- FTeik
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Jason von Evil
- Sol Badguy
- Posts: 8103
- Joined: 2002-11-29 02:13am
- Location: Writer of the fictions
- Contact:
I don't think that was an iMac.Jason von Evil wrote:The ID4 aliens got pwned by a virus created on an iMac.
'Nuff said.
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
The lack of encryption could be overconfidence though. "This pathetic civilization can't hope to match our power"Miles Teg wrote:The mothership being ginormous isn't really a problem for the feds. (In fact, it's probably an advantage to the feds, given the general lack maneuverability it demonstates). In ID4 the ship is destroyed by a single nuclear device (which aparently set off a chain reaction that ultimately destroyed the ship)of a non-impressive size (certainly less of a yield than a p-torp given it's size). All the feds have to do is gain access to the inside of the ship (probably fairly easy given the lack of competence in the computer engineers of the mothership), scan for a vulerable part of the ship (how easy this would be is up for debate), and they are set.
There's no reason they'd have to dumb down their entire system. At most, they'd have to build a system that could bridge there systems with the earth technology. Furthermore, if they didn't bother to encrypt their signal that speaks to their total incompotence as well. =) In any case, didn't they have to go up to the mothership in order to implant the virus directly anyway, thus negating your entire argument (if I understand your argument that is)?LongVin wrote:However you can say that the aliens had to dumb down there technology in some effects to effect the satelites, they would have to use a language that the Earth satelites could understand(since they hijacked them to shield there ships and serve as comm relays) making it somewhat easier to dechiper the code.
Also, I don't recall that the shield were distributed through the sats, but rather that the virus spread to all the ships and knocked out all the shield generators. Am I incorrect in this?
Miles Teg
It wasn't very well covered. It was stated that used the satelites against the Earthers for communications and to establish a line of sight between all ships.