Is there really a point to Japanese RPGs?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-01-08 05:59am

It seems that every Final Fantasy XLVIX has the same basic rule:

1.) Great evil is afoot in the world.
2.) Said Great evil must be defeated by a group of callow youths
3.) Said Callow Youths will have funky hairstyles and clothing
4.) Said Callow Youths will be dumb as bricks
5.) No matter what you do, there's only one way to do something.

The same storyline and play style can be applied to virtually every Japanese RPG that's out; the only thing that changes is:

1.) The Hero(s) names
2.) The Hero(s) clothing
3.) The Hero(s) hairstyle
4.) Name of Villain
5.) Villain's Evil Plan (always differs in some little way but is basically control the world somehow)

By contrast, American RPGs; be it Baldur's Gate, Planescape, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and Arcanum are much more freer and open ended; while there's still basically a great evil to be defeated or some variant thereof; your heroes are much smarter; and you can do basically whatever the hell you want.

Want to be a goody goody two shoes? Okay. Help the little old ladies across the street.

Want to be a total evil bastard and play through the game like you're Bill Munny? Go ahead.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-01-08 06:57pm

Try thinking of it less as a "game" and more of an "interactive story", with "massive time-sink" elements in it - I will never forget seeing my friend spend an entire day doing little else but leveling his characters in Final Fantasy 7.

...god, I just know there's a metric fuckton of comedy potential here, but I'm just not familiar enough with the genre to exploit it. Damnit.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-01-08 07:12pm

Much the same point as there is to, say, MMORPGS, but with the added value that when you get ganked by something far more powerful than you in an unwinnable boss fight, the developers meant it to happen.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-01-08 07:37pm

Like no generalized list can be made about First Person Shooters.

Shep, the games you've listed as American RPGs allow you to create your own characters. When the characters have names and backstories and such set in stone already, it's not nearly as flexible. As for the cliched storyline, there are very few storylines out there if you try and generalize them enough. I don't know why you're out to list the negative in all things Japanese lately, but it's really getting old.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-08 07:46pm

Oh, how can we forget the most important thing about about JRPGs - the locked plot means that you have to do FUCKING RETARDED THINGS.

Remember all the times that you were working for the evil person for a while because your character was too much of a retard to realise it, despite the fact that the moment you saw the NPC you knew they were a big bad? And how it doesn't even give you the option to NOT do their dirty work, let along kill them on the spot (ahhh, Arcanum - I love you).

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-01-08 08:22pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Like no generalized list can be made about First Person Shooters.

What a tragedy that we are forbidden from making threads bitching about FPS games, am I right?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-01-08 09:08pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Shep, the games you've listed as American RPGs allow you to create your own characters.

A brilliant game design move which has escaped Japanese designers so far.

When the characters have names and backstories and such set in stone already, it's not nearly as flexible.

Funny, Black Isle managed that easily for Fallout 1 and 2. Everyone in those games has a backstory and names; yet they are flexible. So did Bioware and of course Bethesda Software.

As for the cliched storyline, there are very few storylines out there if you try and generalize them enough.

Please; the plotline of every Final Fantasy is the same, with the clothes, and the names changed to protect the guilty; the Japanese designers who can't come up with originality, even if I was holding a pistol to their head.

The plotlines for all the Black Isle and Bioware games I've listed are not really generic in between sequels or installments; due to the fact that you can actually make choices which affect the story dramatically; there's no retarded locked cinematic sequence where just five enemy soldiers or whatever grab you and lock you into a dungeon, despite at this point in the game, you've killed about 500 enemy soldiers to this point, with ten of them attacking you at once being normal.

And of course, when you meet a truly evil bunch of bad guys, there's no "screw being nice, lets go and enslave some people" option. Oh sure, the Japanese RPGs have a throwaway line where you say that, but that leads into a long "debate" between your character and his party which ends up with him picking the "good" side no matter what.

Meanwhile, in Fallout 2 you can rob people; enslave people; and kill children for the hell of it. Ditto with the other American RPGs I listed; you have much more path choices open to you; you can be as good or as evil and sadistic that you want to be.

I don't know why you're out to list the negative in all things Japanese lately, but it's really getting old.

Why I'm out? I've only done two rants in like months on Japanese things: the first is about the X-Box; the Japanese don't like it because they aren't supplied with a sufficient number of pointless stats-based linear adventure games (which is what Japanese RPGs are) to fulfill their maniac urge to waste time levelling up; or that Microsoft designed the X-Box controller to fit the average North American Male's hand, instead of Japanese hands.

I LOVE the X-Box "Hockey Puck" controller. It sits in my hand well; I could play with it for hours on end; I don't have to constantly grip the controller to keep it from falling out of my hands like i have to with the much smaller PS2 controllers.

Second is about Japanese RPGs; hence this thread. Japanese RPG style may have worked on the NES/SNES, and in Final Fantasy's first outing on PSX; but by now it's beyond it's expiry date.

Sony/Enix/Japanese Developers of course try to keep it "fresh' by introducing pointless minigames that you need to complete in order to get a rare item to suck up your time; along with animating every attack sequence during a battle with unnecessicarily flashy and LONG animations which chews up even more time; making a shallow game seem "deep" by simply chewing up so much of your time to finish it that it seems worth the money you paid for it.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-01-08 09:14pm

Please; the plotline of every Final Fantasy is the same, with the clothes, and the names changed to protect the guilty; the Japanese designers who can't come up with originality, even if I was holding a pistol to their head.

If a formula sells well, wouldn't it actually make sense to stick with the formula?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-01-08 09:16pm

Uraniun235 wrote:If a formula sells well, wouldn't it actually make sense to stick with the formula?

Even when it's been done 2341 times already? Isn't this what we're always agitating against when we talk about movies and television shows; the producers banging together some generic crap-o-vision thing to make a quick buck?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-01-08 09:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:If a formula sells well, wouldn't it actually make sense to stick with the formula?
Even when it's been done 2341 times already? Isn't this what we're always agitating against when we talk about movies and television shows; the producers banging together some generic crap-o-vision thing to make a quick buck?

Yes, some complain but not nearly in the numbers that Square-Enix cares, or enough that Sony doesn't stop porting some really weird stuff over here.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-01-08 09:39pm

MKSheppard wrote:
When the characters have names and backstories and such set in stone already, it's not nearly as flexible.
Funny, Black Isle managed that easily for Fallout 1 and 2. Everyone in those games has a backstory and names; yet they are flexible. So did Bioware and of course Bethesda Software.

I thought it was blatently obvious that I was referring to the Player Characters, but that seems to have flown right over your head.

As for the cliched storyline, there are very few storylines out there if you try and generalize them enough.
Please; the plotline of every Final Fantasy is the same, with the clothes, and the names changed to protect the guilty; the Japanese designers who can't come up with originality, even if I was holding a pistol to their head.

I'm sorry, you seem to have not read what you were quoting.

The plotlines for all the Black Isle and Bioware games I've listed are not really generic in between sequels or installments; due to the fact that you can actually make choices which affect the story dramatically; there's no retarded locked cinematic sequence where just five enemy soldiers or whatever grab you and lock you into a dungeon, despite at this point in the game, you've killed about 500 enemy soldiers to this point, with ten of them attacking you at once being normal.

I seem to recall that you can get captured in Fallout 1 by the Mutants...

Secondly, yes, the games you listed do fit into the the same mold: Character sets out on a mission, mission becomes gradually more epic, character ends up saving everyone's ass by defeating a great evil and kicking lots of ass doing so.

You can't deny that's not the plot for the games. As I said, you simplify it enough, you find it's the same basic recipie.

And of course, when you meet a truly evil bunch of bad guys, there's no "screw being nice, lets go and enslave some people" option. Oh sure, the Japanese RPGs have a throwaway line where you say that, but that leads into a long "debate" between your character and his party which ends up with him picking the "good" side no matter what.

Now this, I totally agree with. Japanese RPGs need more freeform play and sandbox options. Of course, this would only work if the characters were ones you made yourself, instead of the pre-set characters. Which leads me back to my first statement.

If you posted on other message boards, you might notice that people are complaining about the Final Fantasy series, and that it's become tired. You'd notice that they consider game from the 16-bit era to be the greatest J-RPGs. I'm not in total disagreement with you, Shep, but the way you're presenting your argument leaves much to be desired.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2006-01-08 09:49pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Japanese RPGs need more freeform play and sandbox options.

Which would be simpler in a computer RPG than a console RPG. I would be curious as to whether Japanese computer RPGs are more freeform than the console RPGs.

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2006-01-08 09:52pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Try thinking of it less as a "game" and more of an "interactive story", with "massive time-sink" elements in it - I will never forget seeing my friend spend an entire day doing little else but leveling his characters in Final Fantasy 7.

...god, I just know there's a metric fuckton of comedy potential here, but I'm just not familiar enough with the genre to exploit it. Damnit.

I once knew a guy that leveled up to 99 in FF7, while stealing everything he could from all the monsters. Before he finished Disc 1.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2006-01-08 09:59pm

Cyborg Stan wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:Try thinking of it less as a "game" and more of an "interactive story", with "massive time-sink" elements in it - I will never forget seeing my friend spend an entire day doing little else but leveling his characters in Final Fantasy 7.

...god, I just know there's a metric fuckton of comedy potential here, but I'm just not familiar enough with the genre to exploit it. Damnit.
I once knew a guy that leveled up to 99 in FF7, while stealing everything he could from all the monsters. Before he finished Disc 1.

It's easier than you think. If you go underneath Junon when you're there the first time, and set off the alarm near where the soldiers are doing drills, you can face mosters from later in the game.

Post by **weemadando** » 2006-01-08 10:02pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
I seem to recall that you can get captured in Fallout 1 by the Mutants...

Yeah, in a specific area, if you were killed/KO'd or if you willingly went with them...

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2006-01-08 10:16pm

I'd just reclassify and call them "Linear Plotted, Abstracted Combat Games" and be done with it if it bothers Computer RPG players so much that Console "RPGs" are nothing of the sort.

[And yes, I play BOTH console and PC RPGS]

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2006-01-08 10:34pm

The Dark wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:Japanese RPGs need more freeform play and sandbox options.
Which would be simpler in a computer RPG than a console RPG. I would be curious as to whether Japanese computer RPGs are more freeform than the console RPGs.

The computer gaming market is nearly non-existant in Japan.

I think we're beginning to discover the root of the problem.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2006-01-08 11:14pm

Linear plots mean it's more like an interactive story. I don't view Japanese RPGs as being games as much as they are tales that require you to work. That work allowes you to better identify with and care about the welfare of those that you are controlling, assuming that you're a fan of the genre.

Honestly, Shep, if you don't like them, that's personal preference. I, myself, hate FPS. Why? Because they're all the same to me. The aspects I look for in a game are much more variable in Japanese RPGs than in most FPS games. To start a bitchfest about something so subjective as which is "better" without a clear set of criteria seems extremely silly, and the way you presented it sounded rather bigoted, honestly. Japnese game developers put out fantastic products. I'm not suggesting that was intentional, but you might want to be a bit more careful, is all.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-01-08 11:36pm

Pick wrote:Linear plots mean it's more like an interactive story. I don't view Japanese RPGs as being games as much as they are tales that require you to work. That work allowes you to better identify with and care about the welfare of those that you are controlling, assuming that you're a fan of the genre.

Honestly, Shep, if you don't like them, that's personal preference. I, myself, hate FPS. Why? Because they're all the same to me. The aspects I look for in a game are much more variable in Japanese RPGs than in most FPS games. To start a bitchfest about something so subjective as which is "better" without a clear set of criteria seems extremely silly, and the way you presented it sounded rather bigoted, honestly. Japnese game developers put out fantastic products. I'm not suggesting that was intentional, but you might want to be a bit more careful, is all.

They're not RPGs. People don't know what an RPG really is (again, Fallout, Arcanum, et cetera. Those actually involve roleplaying.)

FF and the like are interactive fiction, a genre which (officially) died in the mid-nineties during the end of the FMV era. Of course, nobody considers these the same. No idea why.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-01-08 11:54pm

There's also no point to WW2 games of any kind, FPS, etc, etc. Except that, Saint's alive, people enjoy them. Who gives a fuck if it's done nine bajillion times before? If people enjoy it, good. If you don't, don't buy it and go fuck off.

Ryoga · Post by **Ryoga** » 2006-01-09 12:01am

SirNitram wrote:There's also no point to WW2 games of any kind, FPS, etc, etc. Except that, Saint's alive, people enjoy them. Who gives a fuck if it's done nine bajillion times before? If people enjoy it, good. If you don't, don't buy it and go fuck off.

Not to get off topic, but I think the black mage has a point. How many fucking times do we as video game players have to storm Omaha Beach anyway? Is one company including more machine gun nests to provide increased value for our $50? Are they perfecting the physics of getting blown into the air by a landmine?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-01-09 12:22am

Well what's the point of literature if there are only some couple hundred basic plots anyway?

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2006-01-09 12:29am

Ryoga wrote:Are they perfecting the physics of getting blown into the air by a landmine?

Oh, you know damn well that they are.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2006-01-09 02:42am

Ryoga wrote: Are they perfecting the physics of getting blown into the air by a landmine?

Nitpick you don't get blow into the air by a landmine. Any landmine of sufficent strength to do that would turn you into small tinny kibbels and bits of humanity.

Yes there is a reason we keep storming Omaha over and over agian.
Because in every single verison there is some tinny change, be it physics, detail or setting and Omaha and the other WWII games have a thousand places they can do and re-do and do agian and agian. Look at Call of Duty and say Silent Hunter III. Diffrent games yes but soon we will get to do it agian but instead prehaps with Rommel's Afrika Core and as an American sub facing down Japanse shipping. Five years of combat and a thousand battles to draw from means many, many games to make. They will make them all sooner or later.

The same reason that we like Spiky Hair young kids with giant swords can stick them even bigger and much ugiler things over and over agian.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2006-01-09 02:46am

While we're on this tangent, I'll say this: every WW2 FPS I've played is different somehow. The weapons have a different "feel" to them, the sounds are different, the visuals are different. I enjoy this sort of change, where I get to play what's basically the same game but with different details.

Mr Bean hit it on the head. It's in the details. And in that I suspect the same can be said for the various FF games and what-have-you.