changing views on abortion

[Col. Crackpot]

As many of you know my wife and I are expecting twins. Because of that fact, over the past few weeks I have been bombarded with baby magazines, baby books, pre natal heathcare books, etc. There are some absolutely phenominal pictures and articles on pre-natal development, and it's having an effect on me. I have always maintained a strong pro choice viewpont with regards to abortion. But damnit i can't help it.. i'm really having some second thoughts on the matter. Granted, there's not really much going on early in the in the first trimester, but once that little bugger starts growing... It's not just an emotional reaction, but a scientific one as well. By the second trimester they feel pain and respond to their mother's voice... I'm feeling really conflicted right now. Have any others among you been in this position?

[petesampras]

We know that conciousness is linked to certain patterns of brain activity. At what point do those patterns arise in a developing foetus? That would seem to be the important question, no?

[Ghost Rider]

I believe many parents come to similar conclusions, Crackpot. Most of what the difference is, that honestly whether the parent wanted the child and the such choice that should one force the mother to take the baby to term.

When becoming a parent, most tend to go "How could one not want a child?" especially in light of your own, and the joy it brings. The feeling though does not transfer to others sometimes as well depending on circumstances.

[Mobiboros]

I'm in an odd position myself.

My wife and I are expecting in early May. But we had a prior loss in October 2004. The baby was 19 weeks along at the time when there were some complications and the baby died, which means they 'induce' so the mother can try to birth the child (It's much less damaging than C-section/other methods). That induction is considered 'abortion' legally. If that option was taken away my wife would have had to carry a dead child until she went into labor naturally. It would have been like 20+ weeks of carrying him around inside her knowing he was already dead. The emotional trauma of that, I'm almost positive, would have resulted in losing my wife as well. It took almost a year to get pregnant again, and quite a bit of emotional support.

That said, your feelings aren't outlandish. It makes sense that having children would change ones views on abortion. I'm in a similar boat, but while I don't think I could personally make the decision to abort a child, it seems all the more reprehensible to me to take that option away from others. The physical and emotional strain of pregnancy is not something that anyone should be forced to accept.

[Sonnenburg]

Have any others among you been in this position?

As a rule I never engage in a discussion of this topic, but since it is closely related to your own, I will. I also had twins; mine were born about ten weeks premature. As a consequnce, I spent a great deal of time in a neonatal care ward, and my position is now firmly entrenched as a result of that experience. I recognize myself as a fanatic, not in the sense that I would plant a bomb or even stand on a street with a placard or something, but simply because I've adopted a position regardless of logic, with the certainty that I would never change that position. This, of course, leads to my rule; it would be to no one's benefit for me to engage in a discussion where I wouldn't be inclined to reconsider.

So, yes, I understand completely where you're coming from.

[Joe]

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I'm sorry, but the first paragraph of your post really affected me. I know it probably doesn't mean much now, but you have my sympathies...

[FSTargetDrone]

Since changing to a vegan diet/philosophy/whatever you wish to call it 9 years ago, my views on abortion have changed. That, and my good friend and his wife having a baby 6 months ago and that makes me think hard about it even more.

Yet, I cannot fathom how a woman can or should be forced to bear a child, especially as a result of rape or incest, not to mention her health if it is a difficult pregnancy, or there are complications. I'd like abortion to be, to borrow a phrase, "safe, legal and rare."

If our society would grow up and not treat sexuality so childishly, keeping what young people need to know about pregnancy prevention and reproductive health essentially in the dark because certain religious types find it offensive to publically fund real sex education, distribution of and easy access to condoms and the like, then we might find ourselves in a situation where abortions don't happen as often.

I think it is also reasonable to allow a mother, or the parents to have abortion as an option if it has been determined that the child will have a serious birth defect or neurolgical impairments if they decide that is the best course of action for them. I am not in anyway advocating the routine termination of such pregnancies for that reason alone, but it should certainly be allowed.

I don't like abortion, but I want the option out there. Banning abortion outright is something I feel shouldn't happen.

[wolveraptor]

I used to have a little sister who, due to some birth complications, had some cardiovascular malady. My parents opted to discontinue treatment because of the severity of her condition. I was only 6 or so at the time, but I remember the first time it hit me, when I read something about euthanasia in Sweden. It hadn't even come-across that she had been, in effect, euthanized. Needless to say, my feelings on child euthanasia were mixed, but I managed to over come it, probably because of the length of time that separated me from the event. Residual shock was minimal. I recognize that the temporal proximity of my anecdote makes it an invalid analogy to your situation, but I think it bears repeating that stances on such topics shouldn't be made capriciously.

[Cairber]

On the pregnancy/trying to conceive board that I post on, there was recently a thread just like this. A lot of people talked about how trying to conceive, pregnancy, loss, etc have made them personally say that they could never get an abortion...others said they now understand more than ever why women would want an abortion, others said they had a new idea about when life began, etc. So I can definitely see where the experience changes a lot of viewpoints in many directions.

My first pregnancy made me believe more than ever in being PERSONALLY prolife...but the trouble I had with healthcare from moving to a different state really made me think about how our society as a whole needs to change to help women.

[drachefly]

My wife and I are expecting in early May.

You too?

Sorry about the earlier one. Though a well-written anti-abortion law would include the case of an actually-dead fetus, which I think everyone would agree on.


As for my views, my mother told me that the second time they had ultrasound on me, they needed to do amniocentesis. Thus, they needed to check my reaction to stimuli. If I approached them, they'd poke her on the side they wouldn't stick the needle in; if I ran away from them, they'd poke her on the side they do stick the needle in.

Well, when they poked her, I ran away, and then a few seconds later, probed back, feeling with my hands where that poke had been.
The most reasonable conclusion was that I was CURIOUS.

Considering that, I have to place the beginning of life pretty early, though not at the absolute beginning like most pro-lifers do.

Every sperm is not sacred.

[wolveraptor]

I know this is anecdotal evidence and all, and so is not arguable, but

The most reasonable conclusion was that I was CURIOUS.

Really? When in the pregnancy did this occur? Is there any reason to suspect it wasn't mere reaction?

[Zero]

My uncle and aunt were trying for a long time to have a kid. They have now, but the first pregnancy ended before it ought to have, and ever since then, I've never quite understood why anyone would want to ditch a pregnancy.

On that same note, I realize now that not all people enter pregnancy with either hope or enthusiasm. A mother forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term would be a shitty mother anyways. People should make their own decisions on the matter, so I'm pro-choice, even if I personally would never recommend abortion, except in cases relating to rape.

It's easier to deal with when you realize that your personal choices and feelings may not be shared by everyone else in the world. It's a personal choice, and even though it's one I disagree with, I respect the right of others to choose.

[SAMAS]

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I'm sorry, but the first paragraph of your post really affected me. I know it probably doesn't mean much now, but you have my sympathies...

Mine, too.

...

[Captain tycho]

I've always been against late-term abortion unless it threatens the mother's health, but the birth of my twins rather solidified that.
While I believe late term abortion is rather sickening, sometimes it is necessary, and I won't argue against women having that right.
But I would be much happier if there was a safe way to terminate the pregnancy early on, when the only thing formed is the embryo. (Or is there? I admit; I don't keep up much on such matters.) That I have no problem with, since the baby at the time is nothing but a tiny clump of cells.

And Mobobibors, my sincerest condolences. That was one of my biggest fears when my wife was pregnant. I'm glad to hear she pulled out okay though.

[FSTargetDrone]

A mother forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term would be a shitty mother anyways.

Why would you say that? There have doubtless been victims of rape who have been fine mothers.

[wolveraptor]

They may not have wanted to be raped, but they obviously did want the baby and the pregnancy.

[Zero]

A mother forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term would be a shitty mother anyways.

Why would you say that? There have doubtless been victims of rape who have been fine mothers.

There have indeed. However, if these mothers didn't get an abortion, they apparently wanted to keep the baby. Besides that, my assertion was an obvious generalization. I don't mean that every mother that's ever had an undesired child has been a shitty mother, just that generally, a mother who doesn't want her child won't prepare for its life very well. It wasn't meant as an absolute statement.

[Adrian Laguna]

Interesting, my mother used to be pro-life until she had kids. That's not to say that she doesn't love her us, she does, she even says that she is her general level of happiness is much higher after having childern than before. However, she is in a better position to understand what an emotional and finanatial burden pregnancy and childcare can be, something than someone unprepared shouldn't have to deal with. It benefits neither the parent nor the child.

[Korvan]

In 1971, I was born to an unwed 29 yr old woman and placed up for adoption. At this time abortion was illegal in Canada. It really bothers me that I may owe my existance to a law that forced my biological mother to carry me to term. It may be that this was what she wanted, but still, the choice was taken from her.

Pro-life and pro-choice are not exclusive concepts. It is only when the pro-lifers seek to impose their views on others conflict results. I could respect pro-lifers a lot more if they redirected their efforts from protesting clinics to providing support services to mothers in need. And providing proper education to prevent these pregnancies in the first place.

[Darth Wong]

What if you found out at week 10 that the kid would have Down's Syndrome? Would you feel as bad about aborting it as you would if the kid were already born?

PS. It is quite possible to support abortion rights without necessarily thinking that you would use this option yourself. It's like prostitution; I would not use a prostitute but I support the right of others to do so.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The terms adopted by both crowds are controversial in themselves. "Pro-life" basically paints anyone else as being "pro-death" by association. I'm "pro-life", but I also know that there are situations where terminating the pregnancy is mandatory since I don't view a woman's life as less than that of a nearly formed baby.

The key is to keep a rational view of this and not get clouded with emotions, easier said than done when you've just found you're becoming a father. A clear head is all that separates us from rabid pro-lifers who murder in the name of life.

[Mobiboros]

What if you found out at week 10 that the kid would have Down's Syndrome? Would you feel as bad about aborting it as you would if the kid were already born?

At week 10? Tough one. I am a big supporter of quality of life, but with the prior loss I'm not sure I could make that decision. I know that's not a clear yes or no, but I can only say my wife and I would likely have many long talks before deciding.

PS. It is quite possible to support abortion rights without necessarily thinking that you would use this option yourself. It's like prostitution; I would not use a prostitute but I support the right of others to do so.

I agree with this precisely. Just because you advocate a freedom doesn't mean you absolutely must exercise it yourself.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

I could respect pro-lifers a lot more if they redirected their efforts from protesting clinics to providing support services to mothers in need. And providing proper education to prevent these pregnancies in the first place.

Well said. All that protesting seems to do (imo) is dehumanize one side or the other. I would think it would be more effective to really care about the people involved. Caring means offering support--not judgement.

I'm pro-life personally (but choose not to answer Wong's hypothetical question because I'm not absolute in this position and honestly don't know what I'd do), but I'll defend the right of others to make up their own mind.

[drachefly]

I know this is anecdotal evidence and all, and so is not arguable, but

The most reasonable conclusion was that I was CURIOUS.

Really? When in the pregnancy did this occur?

I don't know. Whenever the amniocentesis would be. Probably 4-5 months.

Is there any reason to suspect it wasn't mere reaction?

Trivially, it WAS a reaction. The question is the complexity. And it was fairly complex. I don't remember it of course, but it was described to me. Also, my mother mentioned that the... not doctor, I guess this would be a technician... was surprised by the complexity.

Also, considering that when I was given a shock as a baby, a child, and even nowadays, that's still my reaction...

[FSTargetDrone]

There have indeed. However, if these mothers didn't get an abortion, they apparently wanted to keep the baby. Besides that, my assertion was an obvious generalization. I don't mean that every mother that's ever had an undesired child has been a shitty mother, just that generally, a mother who doesn't want her child won't prepare for its life very well. It wasn't meant as an absolute statement.

Fair enough. It did seem a rather blanket statement above, but I see what you mean now.