Æsahættr: Destroy Religion?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-05-20 04:52pm

Watching The Da Vinci Code today made me think. If you were faced with a fact, not necessarily the one in the Dan Brown book/movie, but a verifiable fact with empirical evidence that would, once and for all, dispel religion from Humanity, what would you do?

This revelation, or "Æsahættr" (God destroyer) to borrow from Pullman, would be known only to you, unless you wanted to release it. Would you, if given this chance, release such knowledge and let the foundations of the major religions crumble, leaving millions, nay, billions in disarray? Or would you, in another pragmatic light, keep the secret and not cause a revolution that could ruin the world as we know it now?

It's very much like the scenario faced in real-life where a gov't or company has had evidence found showing it to be lying or practising bad business, yet, doing the "right thing" and releasing such information for all to see would be a bigger problem; as if the necessary evil of letting the country not lose all hope in the gov't, for instance, is needed more than telling the truth.

Have at it. I'll voice my views later.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2006-05-20 04:58pm

I'd release it. Certainly not only do people have a right to truth, it would probably not cause that much of a disturbance. Riots, chaos, maybe a government or two collapsing certainly won't hurt the western world as much as sweeping away the morass of stupidity that organized religion collects.

Now, it's the Middle East that I'm worried about. The Middle East can go fuck itself, for all I'm concerned. If they still want to cause a nuclear holocaust because Allah doesn't exist, then all the more power to them. It'd certainly speed up the removal of organized religion even faster.

The question is- am I right in this? Would the fall of religion stop the horrors that religion unleahes in many parts of the world? If not, there's no reason to destabilize the world for such an ideal as Truth if it won't benefit humanity.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-05-20 05:00pm

I have no idea what it would take beyond modern scientific understanding to so comprehensively debunk religion, but if there was such a thing I wouldn't just release it, I'd broadcast it in the most public venue available. Sucks to religion.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2006-05-20 05:00pm

Ghetto Edit:

Um, to clarify on the above, the Middle East causing a Nuclear Holocaust isn't a specific thing so much as a general idea for the destabilization that would happen. I just figure at some point Israel would get a bit too close to falling back into the sea and help it along. Oh, and Iran, too, if this takes place in the future.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2006-05-20 05:06pm

In an instant. Whatever the short run problems, I can't imagine they will equal the damage caused by, say, another thousand years of religion - or one civilization ending religious war, for the worst-case scenario.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-05-20 05:10pm

MRDOD wrote:Ghetto Edit:

Um, to clarify on the above, the Middle East causing a Nuclear Holocaust isn't a specific thing so much as a general idea for the destabilization that would happen. I just figure at some point Israel would get a bit too close to falling back into the sea and help it along. Oh, and Iran, too, if this takes place in the future.

I'm pretty sure the species would carry on being as fucked up as ever, just religion wouldn't be the grand unifying banner under which most of the major atrocities are performed under. I'll say that the ME would be one unstable area, to be sure, but I have no idea how far it'd go. To be honest, given Iraq is a nice taster of how two factions of the same religion can cause such harm, maybe having them denied such a religious mission may be a good thing.

Still, you then wonder what the real conservative Christians would be like. As I've said elsewhere, they make one hell of a stink over an obviously fictional book and movie on the subject of the Church covering something up. Imagine how they'd react if they were shown their whole religion was a sham.

I know a couple of people who would react. They wouldn't raze a village to the ground in response, but they'd sure be miffed, and then move on. I doubt everyone will just take it that way, though. Given how much of a core religion is to even the modern West, it would make for interesting studying the aftereffects of releasing such evidence.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2006-05-20 05:22pm

I'd do it, so I could read the headlines on the tabloids
"God is dead. Whole nation in grief."

and the news programs
"This is just in! It appears religion is undeniably and irrevocably false."

Of course, I'd think most religious people would just deny it to be true, like they do with everything else, but I assume that they cannot do that in this scenario?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-05-20 05:30pm

The Æsahættr rises beyond the level of threat. It will spell the end for religion as a viable life ethic. The minds of the men in cloth will have to come to terms with trying to facedown a black & white statement that shatters their world, or accept that they are wrong about everything, and when the leaders of the faith cast doubt, the congregation follow.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-20 05:38pm

I don't see why anyone would react in violence unless they don't accept the statement to be true. If they were wrong after all that they've done, they'd be depressed if nothing else. This would be especially true of religious fanatics who killed for something that apparently doesn't exist.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-20 05:41pm

Sorry for the Double post.

Do any of you think there's a possibility for people to commit all kinds of immoral acts because there won't be any punishment for it? Everyone knows those presumptuous assholes who, when questioning atheists, assume they have no code of ethics. Could they behave in the way they expect atheists to?

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-05-20 05:48pm

When you think logically, we already do have concrete evidence that every religion thus far constructed is false.

Everything attributed to any god or gods already has a well supported scientific theory to explain it. The formation of the universe, world, and life on it no longer requires supernatural explanation. We do not need a god to explain the existence of the world.

This is not simply a point-by-point disproving of the stories religions are based on. There is no need to argue the specifics over Eden, because the whole concept of there being a supernatural god or gods is now completely baseless, there is no reason for them to exist. The position of authority once claimed for them as creators, from which the entire rest of religion proceeds is undermined.

And this does not stop people.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-05-20 05:53pm

I am well aware of that, being a former CofE follower and ardent atheist now. The idea is that some single, readily explainable piece comes out that makes everyone doubt their faith (regardless of it all being a crock as we know it).

The hypothetical asks you whether you'd ruin the worldview of all those people for the sake of truth, or let the secret lie, fearing the ramifications of the masses finding what they may have had as a single driving force in life is a fraud (or better yet, disgusts them somehow).

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-05-20 06:04pm

You mean like this?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2006-05-20 06:08pm

Release it. Most people will just ignore it and continue deluding themselves anyway.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-05-20 06:11pm

Vendetta wrote:You mean like this?

I was thinking more of:

Good evening. Here is the news on Friday, the 27th of Geldof. Archaeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read "To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitious and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental." The page has been universally condemned by church leaders.

But enough of this. It's simply nitpicking a hypothetical and has nothing to do with the reason for the decision put to the audience here.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2006-05-20 06:44pm

I'd release it. The strife caused would only last, at the most, 5 years, and then things should clear up.

Man, I'm cruel.

What's more interesting, to me at least, is discussing how people would react to this irrifutable proof. I can picture more than a few suicides, but I can see a whole lot of people turning to the old adage "If there is no god, there is no morality!" and fucking things up for everybody.

I can also see quite a few death threats and assasniation attempts. That'd suck.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-05-20 07:19pm

So I'm assuming for the purpose of this hypothetical, whatever fact I have is some kind of magic silver bullet which will overcome everyone's resistance to the idea that there is no God (or gods, for that matter), right? Because otherwise, Durandal is right: the believers will ignore it and go right on believing.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-05-20 07:27pm

It's more a question of whether you would do it or not, rather than the ramifications themself. If you thought truth was worth more and to hell with the potential problems, then you'd release it. If you feel it may ruin the world you know, then don't. I'm curious as to whether people would or wouldn't more than what effects it would have on others.

Post by **Simplicius** » 2006-05-20 07:27pm

I too would make this information public. Things might be chaotic for a while (I could imagine, say, some doomsday-culters who would try to bring the End Days about by their own means rather than face facts), but that mess would settle down eventually, after a lot of people sat down and did some really heavy thinking. The effect on humanity would doubtless be a net improvement, because - barring any stubborn Doubting Thomases - an obstacle in the form of an uncomfortable truth would have been surmounted, without altering the basic mental stuff which has let humans accomplish great things when they set their minds to it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-20 07:48pm

Ignoring the fact that it wouldn't work, of course I'd release it. Thousands of years of hate, strife, and general stupidity are more than enough to make me think that thousands more would be much worse than any short-term chaos caused by disillusioned believers.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-05-20 08:16pm

It would be hard for me to do, but I would release it. I am a liberal enlightened Catholic (yes I get the irony) but for the sake of the world, I would release it to the wolrd after I came to terms with what I have discovered.

I really don't see how the Da Vinci Code's ideas would really be all that shattering, they don't affect me, but I kinda nit-picked my beliefs. If Christ was a man, then he had a penis, and, given the fact that most rabbis of the time were supposed to be married, if my understanding of the time is correct, then he would've been married. And considering that if you believe in Jesus and the story of the Cruifixiction, then he deserved to get laid if he wanted to. It would not affect his divinity in any way in my opinion. Who are people to tell Jesus where to put his penis?!

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2006-05-20 08:36pm

If I could destroy religion, I'm not entirely certain what I'd do, at least immediately. There are actually a decent number of people who genuinely believe that there's no reason to behave ethically without an omnipotent parental figure to punish you for your misdeeds, which is why that's such a popular strawman of the atheist position. I would also contemplate the vague unifying force that religion has in holding groups of people together over some vague ideology, and weigh this against the obvious dividing properties of it in causing people to kill one another over baseless claims with no rationale.

In the end, it's obvious that the world would do better without religion, but in the short-term, there would probably be a raise in crime rates, and a general apathy shown by the public that had never been known before. So yeah, I'd do it.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-05-20 09:17pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:I really don't see how the Da Vinci Code's ideas would really be all that shattering, they don't affect me, but I kinda nit-picked my beliefs. If Christ was a man, then he had a penis, and, given the fact that most rabbis of the time were supposed to be married, if my understanding of the time is correct, then he would've been married. And considering that if you believe in Jesus and the story of the Cruifixiction, then he deserved to get laid if he wanted to. It would not affect his divinity in any way in my opinion. Who are people to tell Jesus where to put his penis?!

As far as I can figure, the concept of a Jesus who was actually divine having sex with a mortal is a bit too... pagan for the Catholic Church.

Well, at least he didn't around impregnating women as a beam of light, or knocking up bulls.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2006-05-20 09:31pm

Are you kidding me? I can't fucking shut up when it comes to my opinions, much less veritable fact

.

I'd tell everyone. We should be living for truth and greater comphrehension of our existance. A feel-good falsehood is still a lie, and at this magnitude, that is simply not acceptable.

bilateralrope · Post by **bilateralrope** » 2006-05-20 10:10pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:It would be hard for me to do, but I would release it. I am a liberal enlightened Catholic (yes I get the irony) but for the sake of the world, I would release it to the wolrd after I came to terms with what I have discovered.

From my interpation of the OP, this fact would end your faith even if you decide to keep it secret since if it doesn't work on you, it won't work on the masses. So your current faith won't mean much.

Though I would like to see how a fundie board would react to this.