The Problem of Pain

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Battlehymn Republic
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The Problem of Pain

Post by Battlehymn Republic »

This is a newbie's attempt to question theodicy, and anti-theodicy.

The whole argument about the problem of pain preventing the existence of a benevolent god and the counter-argument of this is the best of all possible worlds seemed nonsensical to me.
'And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways,' Yossarian continued, hurtling on over her objection. 'There's nothing so mysterious about it. He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about - a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?'

'Pain?' Lieutenant Scheisskopf's wife pounced upon the word victoriously. 'Pain is a useful symptom. Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.'

'And who created the dangers?' Yossarian demanded. He laughed caustically. 'Oh, He was really being charitable to us when He gave us pain! Why couldn't He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person's forehead. Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn't He?'

'People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.'

'They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupefied with morphine, don't they? What a colossal, immoral blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead, His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It's obvious He never met a payroll. Why, no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him as even a shipping clerk!'
I've always thought as the response: "And what if we lived in a world with an atmosphere of acid, with life expectancies of three, and venomous snakes that fly everywhere?"

The thing is, isn't all pain relative? I mean, if we lived in a world where the worst pain anyone could derive in life was a sprained ankle, wouldn't our entire culture and mentality revolve around the fear and angst of getting a sprained ankle, of the suffering of the ankle, and praying for a deity to cure us of the Almighty Sprain? It seems really subjective to call a deity a shoddy creator- if all of the major flaws in the universe were deleted, we'd just think of the lesser flaws as major ones.

Of course, Leibniz's "this is the best of all possible worlds" is as nonsensical as well. You don't have to read Candide to know that the world is fucked up.

Is the problem of pain a valid argument at all?
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Anguirus
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Post by Anguirus »

It certainly is, and it's one I've heard before. (In fact, Spider Robinson argued it rather eloquently in a novel.)

Something like pain is necessary, but pain itself can actually cause shock (and directly contribute to death) or cause paralyzation or hesitation in a desperate situation (indirectly contributing to death).

There is no reason for God to design pain so that entire industries grow up to suppress it. Chronic pain does nobody any good. Compare that to the sense of smell. Unpleasent smells, you'll find, can usually be ignored rather quickly once endured for a few minutes, despite their usefulness in alerting us to possible threats.

If God does exist, his creation of pain is a veritable CRIME, and lives would be saved and improved if its impact on our bodies and minds was decreased.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
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Batman
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Post by Batman »

Even if pain is neccessary, that's only because God also created all the things that require it to be.
Frankly claiming God isn't an asshole because he created the world we live in based on the assumption we'd still be whining in a safer one is complete garbage. The fact remains that without all the dangers we whine about less people would be hurt. The fact that people would still be yammering about stubbed toes doesn't change the fact that a lot more people would be alive to do so.
Yes, if an almighty God exists who created everything he's either incompetent beyond comprehension or a sadist. Or, possibly, utterly indifferent.
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Melchior
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Re: The Problem of Pain

Post by Melchior »

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Of course, Leibniz's "this is the best of all possible worlds" is as nonsensical as well. You don't have to read Candide to know that the world is fucked up.
I won't touch the rest, I think that the concepet of an omnipotent being is logically inconsistent, so this kind of problem doesn't even need to be discussed, but this excerpt is factually wrong.

Leibniz "best of all possibile worlds" theory was derived from the neoplatonic ontology that he followed, and was not an endorsement of the pleasantness of this world. He simply thought that a world with, for example, good people and evil people, was more perfect than a world with only good people, because the first contained more entities, and less "not-being".
Candide is satire that strawmans his position, which was wrong, but for other reasons, and does not constitute reasonable criticism of Leibniz's vision.
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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

Batman wrote:The fact remains that without all the dangers we whine about less people would be hurt. The fact that people would still be yammering about stubbed toes doesn't change the fact that a lot more people would be alive to do so.
True, but where do we draw the line? When Earth is a complete utopia and everyone is both immortal and invulnerable? I'm not saying that it wouldn't be better if the world was created so less people died, and pain wasn't as painful. But in a safer world, our conception of the upper limit of pain would be suitably altered, wouldn't it? We'd still be calling god a complete fucker for allowing people to die, no matter how few.
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Post by Batman »

So?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Anguirus
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Post by Anguirus »

When Earth is a complete utopia and everyone is both immortal and invulnerable?
Sounds like heaven. Why doesn't he just dump us in there?
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
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Post by Batman »

To elaborate (hey, everybody else says Ghetto edit), why does man's inclination to whine absolve God from his responsibility for creating the conditions that cause man to do so?
Yes, we'd still complain in a near-utopia. Doesn't change the fact that God created the world that gave us cause to complain.
Assuming you believe in God.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Battlehymn Republic
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Post by Battlehymn Republic »

I'm just not very sure about the problem of pain argument. So, basically, because suffering exists, it negates the possibility of an all-benevolent deity?
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Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Battlehymn Republic wrote:I'm just not very sure about the problem of pain argument. So, basically, because suffering exists, it negates the possibility of an all-benevolent deity?
Of course, unless you wish to postulate the deity is benevolent but incompetent. A benevolent creator wouldn't knowingly create so much misery. Even if one makes the arguement that some suffering is necessary, it's very obvious that an enormous amount is unnecessary. As mentioned, the common usage of painkillers proves that much pain is unnecessary, given that people function better without constant or severe pain, as well as feel better. Pain is a poorly designed alarm system lacking either a shut off switch or a volume control.

Then there's the millions of people who have suffered from ( and still do ) pain whose origin is unfixable. What good does it do a Stone Age man to feel the agony of cancer, without hope of a cure or even painkillers ?

I remember some of Spider Robinson's comments on pain; one that stuck in my head was a character commenting how he doesn't understand why people who believe in God don't hate the bastard.
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