Well? How is it?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-07 11:22pm

First of all, PLEASE BE HONEST. I will NOT be upset with people for posting that I did poorly, and solemnly swear not to hold a grudge about anything posted here. In fact, I encourage you all to post your suggestions and comments--what did I do poorly on? What would you have done with regards to [x] claim? How could I have improved upon this?

That being said, what do you guys think? How is it?

You can find my rebuttal to Mr. Anderson's site here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/

Mr. Anderson's site can be found here:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/

I hope that you enjoy, but also learn from the comments made by both sides.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-01-07 11:23pm

I have yet to read it all fully, so far though I haven't been able to spot any mistakes.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-07 11:28pm

Personally from what I read(still asorbing more of it...there is a good deal of this to go through

)...you shredded him where it hurts most and actually may be one of the few to reach down under his WoI and rip him a new one.

So far, so good.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-07 11:38pm

You did beautifully Ossus. For that reason it is most unfortunate the the WoI will stand firmly even under your nuclear assault. Nonetheless, much kudos for ripping apart his arguments.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-07 11:41pm

Just a minor thing...

This is merely another one of Mr. Anderson's pro-Trek claims that come from nowhere. While it is clear the starship shields are more than capable of stopping physical impacts (like photon torpedoes or the section of the hull that Anderson mentions), it is also impossible to rule out that the shields were simply not capable of deflecting such a large impact. Considering that the relatively small section of the Valdore class warbird, which struck the E-E twice, knocked its shields down by an enormous percent—down to ten percent from an unspecified but probably very high percent, and certainly one larger than forty percent because they were trying to hide another set of shields that had been depleted to that percentage by using their forward shields—we come up with a fairly consistent idea of how good Trek shielding is against KE impacts.

You might want to clean this up a bit. The "10%" was the shield rating given to the fore shields, but the Valdore wing hit the starboard side of the saucer and starboad side nacelle, neither of which is the fore shield, neither did the shield deactivate from the hit alone, since it flared-up again once it skittered back and hit the nacelle. We have no idea how much damage the KE impact caused to the shields, just what the damage that the Scimitar did as it fired its aft weapons at the fore shields of the E-E.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-07 11:43pm

Northern Huntsman wrote:Just a minor thing...

This is merely another one of Mr. Anderson's pro-Trek claims that come from nowhere. While it is clear the starship shields are more than capable of stopping physical impacts (like photon torpedoes or the section of the hull that Anderson mentions), it is also impossible to rule out that the shields were simply not capable of deflecting such a large impact. Considering that the relatively small section of the Valdore class warbird, which struck the E-E twice, knocked its shields down by an enormous percent—down to ten percent from an unspecified but probably very high percent, and certainly one larger than forty percent because they were trying to hide another set of shields that had been depleted to that percentage by using their forward shields—we come up with a fairly consistent idea of how good Trek shielding is against KE impacts.

You might want to clean this up a bit. The "10%" was the shield rating given to the fore shields, but the Valdore wing hit the starboard side of the saucer and starboad side nacelle, neither of which is the fore shield, neither did the shield deactivate from the hit alone, since it flared-up again once it skittered back and hit the nacelle. We have no idea how much damage the KE impact caused to the shields, just what the damage that the Scimitar did as it fired its aft weapons at the fore shields of the E-E.

Hmm... looking back on that, you seem to be correct. It makes little substantive difference, because the E-E was obviously seriously damaged by the KE impact, but you are correct in not defining a particular percentage. Sorry.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-07 11:46pm

You did a great job, Ossus.

What's even better is that you've actually managed to get him seriously pissed off.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-07 11:59pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Northern Huntsman wrote:Just a minor thing...

This is merely another one of Mr. Anderson's pro-Trek claims that come from nowhere. While it is clear the starship shields are more than capable of stopping physical impacts (like photon torpedoes or the section of the hull that Anderson mentions), it is also impossible to rule out that the shields were simply not capable of deflecting such a large impact. Considering that the relatively small section of the Valdore class warbird, which struck the E-E twice, knocked its shields down by an enormous percent—down to ten percent from an unspecified but probably very high percent, and certainly one larger than forty percent because they were trying to hide another set of shields that had been depleted to that percentage by using their forward shields—we come up with a fairly consistent idea of how good Trek shielding is against KE impacts.

You might want to clean this up a bit. The "10%" was the shield rating given to the fore shields, but the Valdore wing hit the starboard side of the saucer and starboad side nacelle, neither of which is the fore shield, neither did the shield deactivate from the hit alone, since it flared-up again once it skittered back and hit the nacelle. We have no idea how much damage the KE impact caused to the shields, just what the damage that the Scimitar did as it fired its aft weapons at the fore shields of the E-E.
Hmm... looking back on that, you seem to be correct. It makes little substantive difference, because the E-E was obviously seriously damaged by the KE impact, but you are correct in not defining a particular percentage. Sorry.

Actually, there's little evidence there was any damage, the E-E didn't even jitter in its forward movement, and there were no "damage marks" on the nacelle or the section of saucer that were hit. In this movie, the E-E had the much tougher to see "hull-hugging" shields, but if you watch carefully, there's no damage through the shields, and the crew is much more concerned with the fire from the Scimitar than the collision.

If indeed the vessel had been severely damaged (or the shields depleted on that part of the ship) it would've made far more sense to report the starboard shields failing than the fore shields, since the viewscreen was facing fore.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-08 12:02am

Do we know that hull hugging shield strength is reported in the same way that bubble-shield strength is? The reason I ask is that the first impact may have easily fallen under the "forward" definition of the shields, and because the second impact occurred to the front of the nacelle, it is POSSIBLE (though, obviously, less likely) that it was also reported as being a forward impact.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-08 12:02am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:You did a great job, Ossus.

What's even better is that you've actually managed to get him seriously pissed off.

Yeah, he seems really mad about this rebuttal. I think I got his attention.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-08 12:05am

Did you notice in his spiel about it that he didn't come up with a single concrete rebuttal? What 'creationist scatter gun' tactics?

I can't help but get the feeling he desperately WANTS TO BE Mike. Every phrase that Mike has ever used, you'll find Darkstar using it soon enough.

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-08 12:38am

Master of Ossus wrote:Do we know that hull hugging shield strength is reported in the same way that bubble-shield strength is? The reason I ask is that the first impact may have easily fallen under the "forward" definition of the shields, and because the second impact occurred to the front of the nacelle, it is POSSIBLE (though, obviously, less likely) that it was also reported as being a forward impact.

It wouldn't matter, since the majority of the first collision is after the midpoint of the saucer. So by that definition it would have been "rear shields"

The Defiant also repeatedly referred to simply the forward area as fore shields, aft as aft, etc.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-08 12:41am

Does Northern Huntsman have any points to make on the more important parts of the article, such as Darkstar's key arguments regarding range, firepower, Death Star, etc?

Northern Huntsman · Post by **Northern Huntsman** » 2003-01-08 01:02am

Darth Wong wrote:Does Northern Huntsman have any points to make on the more important parts of the article, such as Darkstar's key arguments regarding range, firepower, Death Star, etc?

Yes, he does, but they'll have to wait until he can actually get some sleep.

Contrary to what Darkstar says, it isn't an overnight thing to draw-up analyses of that many pages.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-08 01:06am

Northern Huntsman wrote:It wouldn't matter, since the majority of the first collision is after the midpoint of the saucer. So by that definition it would have been "rear shields"

The Defiant also repeatedly referred to simply the forward area as fore shields, aft as aft, etc.

Irrelevent. The saucer section extends for less than half the length of the ship. Thus, by my definition, ANY hit to the saucer section could be considered the forward shields.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-08 01:07am

Northern Huntsman wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Does Northern Huntsman have any points to make on the more important parts of the article, such as Darkstar's key arguments regarding range, firepower, Death Star, etc?
Yes, he does, but they'll have to wait until he can actually get some sleep.

Contrary to what Darkstar says, it isn't an overnight thing to draw-up analyses of that many pages.

True. I encourage everyone to take their time in formulating their comments and criticisms of my articles. There's really no hurry, so if you are considering replying, please wait until you can think clearly and completely about things.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-08 02:10am

Ossus, it was a MATER stroke. I was amazed that your sanity survived after trudging through the dungeon of Darkstar's domain, or even better yet, you were like the Captain, going up the river Nung in Vietnam to confront the mad (and fat) Colonel. You penetrated his base, was almost swallowed by his madness, but survived his mad mutterings as you hung in the tiget cage that is his website.

You withstood the worst that he had then you butchered him like an oxen. All you need to do now Ossus is call in that B-52 strike on his site and end the abomination forever.

Seriously this was an awesome piece of work and must have taken some serious dilligence and patience but I do believe that you struck him to the quick, the very foundations of his Wall of Ignorance have been shaken and now he sits behind his wall screaming in his robot like fashion that the warsie jihad is out to get him...but in TRUE Dark star fashion, the ABSOLUTE best response he has for you is CLASSIC: "90% of his arguments simply collapse on their own weight and do not need to be addressed."

I do believe he is beaten. All he has left to say is: "The Horror. the Horror."

BTW Sorry for the Apocolpyse Now laden post, but it was the image that sprang to mind when I imagined Ossus in that horrible land for what else resembles Darkstar's twisted fabric of a site than war ravaged Vietnam with insanity running rampant.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-01-08 05:46am

Ossus, the fact you even took him on warrants gratitude.

The fact you kicked him squarely in the nuts and got this kind of response warrants your nomination for sainthood

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-01-08 06:00am

Excellent job, it was an incredible piece of argument(manship).

Is this finally the begining of the end of RSA? Is it possible that the foundations can beshaken enough, that he'll fall into the rubble of his claims? (Don't miss our next episode...)

You migth make a small correction, though, in the Cloack Technology, rigth at the introduction, you mention Sulu visually detecting a cloacked ship (a BOP) in ST IV, but it was in ST III, in orbit around the Genesis Planet.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-08 10:26am

His recent rantings actually remind me a lot of Saruman, after the Ents destroyed Isengard but before Gandalf confronted him. He's just kind of screaming down from the battlements without making any real points. Oh well....

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-01-08 10:44am

I do not think that this has yet destroyed Dark Star, you have hurt him MoO, he showed that clearly, but to truly beat him we must all combine our efforts to contradict every single word of bullshit he lets out of his mouth.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-08 11:34am

You've made your points and you know the same thing will happen AGAIN. Darkstar will just go around and around and around and around.........it's simply not worth your time. However, good luck.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-08 11:53am

Destroyed him? No. And I don't think anything will. But it does correct anyone who reads DS's site and believes it.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-08 02:26pm

I was greatly impressed with your work, MoO. Very patient, very clear, and excellently portrayed.

HOWEVER, I really can't praise you as the "destroyer" of RSA, as he destroyed himself.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-08 03:59pm

Excellent work, it would have destroyed every normal rabid trekkie, but I fear dumbshit's wall of ignorance can not be destroyed with the means at our disposal.