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My collegue said that the latest ATI X800 graphicscard might not (fully) support Windows 98, however I can't seem to verify that anywhere, I've got enough money to get a replacement for my current videocard, but I'm still pondering if I should buy this X800 or wait for the new NVidea cards (which aren't available here). Money isn't too much of an issue, yet I do not want to waste it. Energyconsumption of the ATI cards seem to be lower, which gives them bonuspoints.

Here are the specs of the system we're talking about:

• AMD 3200 CPU @2200 MHz, 400 Mhz FSB
  A7N8X Mobo
  2x 512MB Corsair memory @400 MHz
  Asus GF4 Ti4400 Deluxe
  Windows 98 Second Edition (changes are non-negotiable)

So there are three options I'm considering for my next graphics card upgrade:

• ATI Radeon X800 Pro
  ATI Radeon X800 TD
  NVidea 6800 Ultra

Both the X800 TD and the 6800 are not yet for sale here, the X800 Pro is around $500. I'm not in a hurry so I can wait for the other two cards. I'd like to buy the ATI X800 TD, but is that a waste of money compared to the X800 Pro, and more importantly, does it work fully under Win98SE?

If you want to wait the TD and the 6800 are only a few weeks/months down the road, however considering the extra $200 for those cards over the ATI x800 Pro

And as for price try pricewatch, I got mine for 396$ with shipping after a twenty doller discount

Why is the Win 98SE a prerequisite? Why not upgrade your OS? For the difference in price between the graphics card you can buy a new Windows OS. I don't think that the X800 even attempts to support Win 98. Sorry.

Do by TD you mean the platinium Edition?


Anyway, I think currently, all the new cards are going to hit CPU bottlenecks VERY early in your PC, you won't get much faster milage.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Guy N. Cognito wrote:Why is the Win 98SE a prerequisite? Why not upgrade your OS? For the difference in price between the graphics card you can buy a new Windows OS. I don't think that the X800 even attempts to support Win 98. Sorry.

Amongst other reasons such as my completely irrational hatred for the bloatware called winXP it's because I want to play DOS games that don't run in DOSBox. And does anyone have proof that the X800s do or do not run on Win98? The shop selling the Pro lists Win98 in the minium requirements, but that doensn't mean much...

Ace Pace wrote:Do by TD you mean the platinium Edition?

Anyway, I think currently, all the new cards are going to hit CPU bottlenecks VERY early in your PC, you won't get much faster milage.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes it's also called the Platinum Edition AFAIK. And why should it be hitting the CPU barrier? This is the fastest AMD 32-bits CPU there is, and the 64-bit ones aren't even supported fully yet.

If you hate bloat, why even use windows?!

Yes it's also called the Platinum Edition AFAIK. And why should it be hitting the CPU barrier? This is the fastest AMD 32-bits CPU there is, and the 64-bit ones aren't even supported fully yet.

Even on 3.4GhzEE P4's they are hitting CPU blocks, see any quality hardware reviews. Current CPU's hold cards back.
It may be the fastest AMD 32-bit, but that dosn't mean much, in the 32-bit Intel is faster, and 64-bit is supported.

Ace Pace wrote:If you hate bloat, why even use windows?!

Because I also have an Ultima Online server which uses C# and the .NET framework, which needs Windows...

Windows98 isn't that bad bloatwise, even my 486 can run perfectly fine on it. Too bad too much games need Windows. How good is WINE anyway in that aspect? Got an older version of Mandrake somewhere on my AMD1800, but never really got around to using it.

Ace Pace wrote:

Yes it's also called the Platinum Edition AFAIK. And why should it be hitting the CPU barrier? This is the fastest AMD 32-bits CPU there is, and the 64-bit ones aren't even supported fully yet.

Even on 3.4GhzEE P4's they are hitting CPU blocks, see any quality hardware reviews. Current CPU's hold cards back.
It may be the fastest AMD 32-bit, but that dosn't mean much, in the 32-bit Intel is faster, and 64-bit is supported.

Okay, good point. Well I'm just going to stay 32-bit for now with windows98, when I switch to 64-bits I'll switch the OS too.

Unless you have an antique card, I don't see why upgrading should matter, the next generation maybe, but currently, an 9700 or 9800 runs allmost everything fine. I don't notice slowdowns anywhere on my 9700, and 2GHZ PC.

My card doens't seem to want to run Farcry in any decent resolution. Not that I play that game, most games I play are 2D anyway, but when I saw that mess I decided that I needed an upgrade. Probably because my card doesn't support DX9.

Sokartawi wrote:My card doens't seem to want to run Farcry in any decent resolution. Not that I play that game, most games I play are 2D anyway, but when I saw that mess I decided that I needed an upgrade. Probably because my card doesn't support DX9.

You should upgrade to a DX9 card, but I don't see the need for any of the new cards.

I'm kinda waiting for the kernel to jump in and correct me.

Well when I'm upgrading I usually directly go for the best item available, since when I do that I don't need to upgrade again for a long time. These kinds of cards will always come in handy. And I'd like to have one of the fastest Win98 PCs, just for fun. I've already managed to get the fastest 486 so, just need more L2 Cache...

*Digs up specs*

AMD 4x86-P75-S 133@160 MHz
16kB L1 Writeback Cache

Asus PVI-486 SP3 (AT format) Mainboard
256kB L2 Cache, mode 3.2.2.2
Chipset SIS 496/497NU, Version 2B
Bios AWARD 4.51 PnP
ANSI-ATA-4 (PIO mode 4)
UDMA-33
2x64MB Fast-Page 60nS RAM

1x Maxtor Diamondmax+ 2500 7.5 GB UDMA/33 7200RPM, 9mS, 512kB SDRAM Buffer
1x Maxtor 740 80GB 7200RPM Harddisk IDE 133, single partition

Matrox Millenium PCI G200 @90MHz 8MB SDRAM, 250MHz RamDac
Voodoo 2 Fx PCI @90MHz 12MB SDRAM (two videocards that are linked)

Philips PCA 363 UDMA/33 ATAPI/EIDE, 512kB Cache

Windows 98SE version 4.10.2222 A
(with MSDOS version 7.10 A)

Philips 105 B SVGA 15" (With built-in Speakers)
85Hz, 2x 0.4 Watt

Chicony Keyboard (Win 101)

Logitech PS2 Optical Wheelmouse

Philips PCA 750 PS ISA Soundcard
3D 16 bits SB Comp

Philips MMS 110 2x 2 Watt Speakers

Your Weird, go talk to phong or Einy about old PC's .


I allways upgrade, esspecially in GPU's, one step below the best, allows for best price.

Ace Pace wrote:Your Weird, go talk to phong or Einy about old PC's .

Hmm maybe one of those guys will have the 512KB cache I'm searching for

Ace Pace wrote:I allways upgrade, esspecially in GPU's, one step below the best, allows for best price.

Yes pricewise that's the best thing to do, I did that with the current graphics card as well. I should just wait for a bit for prices to drop anyway, since I'm not in a hurry.

If your in the 1st world countries (i'm not), prices for the last generation DROPPED, I'd get a 9800Pro or something right now, not 256MB.

Ace Pace wrote:If your in the 1st world countries (i'm not), prices for the last generation DROPPED, I'd get a 9800Pro or something right now, not 256MB.

Can buy used ones of those for about $150-170, with warranty still on it etc. And decent brands too... However is the difference between this and my Ti4400 noticable and worth the money?

Sokartawi wrote:

Ace Pace wrote:If your in the 1st world countries (i'm not), prices for the last generation DROPPED, I'd get a 9800Pro or something right now, not 256MB.

Can buy used ones of those for about $150-170, with warranty still on it etc. And decent brands too... However is the difference between this and my Ti4400 noticable and worth the money?

Do so, and the differances are massive.

I'm going from the testamony from a friend with a ti4400 who vists me alot

"Its like going from 8bit to 16bit graphics" Tons of stuff, just look at some pictures of far cry.

Ace Pace wrote:If you hate bloat, why even use windows?!

Yes it's also called the Platinum Edition AFAIK. And why should it be hitting the CPU barrier? This is the fastest AMD 32-bits CPU there is, and the 64-bit ones aren't even supported fully yet.

Even on 3.4GhzEE P4's they are hitting CPU blocks, see any quality hardware reviews. Current CPU's hold cards back.
It may be the fastest AMD 32-bit, but that dosn't mean much, in the 32-bit Intel is faster, and 64-bit is supported.

Isn't the P4EE slightly slower than the cheaper FX-53 (32-bit mode) for gaming?

And I've heard that 64-bit windows will actually *slow* 32-bit apps down. Then again, it seems you are thinking about 64 bit Linux .

As for Wine, you need to get WineX for games (5$/month).

To choose from the cards above you have to tell us first: what do you intend to use your computer for?


If you need the power just for the latest games, then go with the Radeon (if it was DOS games only, you wouldn't need to worry about your current card).

If you're going to use OpenGL-extensive applications as well as games, go with NVidia.

Pu-239 wrote:And I've heard that 64-bit windows will actually *slow* 32-bit apps down. Then again, it seems you are thinking about 64 bit Linux .

Is there anything windows does NOT slow down?

Pu-239 wrote:As for Wine, you need to get WineX for games (5$/month).

Hmm not going to pay subscription fees for anything. That's why I got my own UO server. I buy the game and expansions in shop, but no way in hell I'm going to pay subscriptions. Plus I don't even have a creditcard. But how is this program? Do all windows games run flawlessly? Still problems? Crashes?

Shinova wrote:To choose from the cards above you have to tell us first: what do you intend to use your computer for?

If you need the power just for the latest games, then go with the Radeon (if it was DOS games only, you wouldn't need to worry about your current card).

If you're going to use OpenGL-extensive applications as well as games, go with NVidia.

Play games, and MAYBE do something with 3D Max once I can figure out how that hunk-o-junk works... Such an unintuitive interface

Sokartawi wrote:

Shinova wrote:To choose from the cards above you have to tell us first: what do you intend to use your computer for?

If you need the power just for the latest games, then go with the Radeon (if it was DOS games only, you wouldn't need to worry about your current card).

If you're going to use OpenGL-extensive applications as well as games, go with NVidia.

Play games, and MAYBE do something with 3D Max once I can figure out how that hunk-o-junk works... Such an unintuitive interface

Ah, so you will be doing some 3d work. Then you might wanna consider the NVidia, and....


http://www.softimage.com/products/exp/v3/


The full-feature demo version of XSI is a free download; try it out sometime. Interface can look funky at first, but get used to it and it's one of the best UI for a 3d program out in the market.

If you find it nice, and you happen to be a student, then the full-feature student version is $295.


[/Shameless plug]

Uhh but I need 3D Max because I can use the stuff in games, like morrowind or games other people are making. Too bad it only supports 3D Max 3 and 4, I've seen 5 and that looks much easier. I don't care much about making movies etc...

Oh and no, I don't EVER want to go back to ANY kind of school again...

If you've got the money, I absolutely recommend the new X800/6800 class of cards because they are simply so much faster than the previous generation and you should be able to get at least a couple years of gaming out of them.

As for which is better, it's really a question of preference. If you want to save at least a little money, I'd suggest you think about either the 6800GT or the X800Pro. If you want to do any sort of professional 3D work, you need to get the nVidia card, but if you are just into pure gaming then you can go with either one. Really, the performance differences between the two are small and even those will fluctuate since nVidia has a lot of driver growth on their new architecture whereas ATI won't have nearly as much since R420 in based heavily on the R300.

Also nVidia has the advantage of Pixel/Vertex Shader 3.0 support, although as of right now, it isn't that big a deal. Still its worth thinking about since ATI will also be adding PS/VS 3.0 in the next resping of their GPU's.

As for what I'd do, I'd wait until you see a release of the 6800GT, then pick one up. I prefer the solid nVidia drivers to ATI's slightly better performance (which may or may not hold with new drivers) but either card is a fine choice.

EDIT: Oh, and about this silly Win9x fetish of yours...

Let me explain something. First, Win9x support is going the way of the Dodo. It will be totally gone before the arrival of Longhorn, that much is pretty clear at this point. Second, if you really want to DOS game you can either get a cheap dedicated box for it and run a KVM switch OR you can make it work under WinXP pretty well for most games with a few tweaks. I DOS game under WinXP and have no complaints.

As for WinXP being bloated, if you turn off all the interface effects, it actually runs pretty acceptably on low end hardware. You can return it to classic interface style and it basically runs like Win2k, which was a fine operating system.

In any case, make the switch soon, or else the industry will do it for you.

There's now a GeForce FX6800Ultra/TD for sale, 579 bucks.

As for Win98SE, I'm not switching for this system. Besides the videocard, there isn't any hardware going to be improved, and it's fast enough to last for a while. Win2k might be a decent OS, but Ultima Online won't run on it in 3D mode. Still it hogs way too much CPU. I often say "If an OS can't run on my 486, it's not an OS". For fun I've got a Cyrix266 /w 64MB RAM server running on Win98, with a couple of forums on invisionboard software. It has never crashed nor needed to reboot since february. It's probably insecure as hell, but so far there haven't been any problems.

Sokartawi wrote:

Pu-239 wrote:As for Wine, you need to get WineX for games (5$/month).

Hmm not going to pay subscription fees for anything. That's why I got my own UO server. I buy the game and expansions in shop, but no way in hell I'm going to pay subscriptions. Plus I don't even have a creditcard. But how is this program? Do all windows games run flawlessly? Still problems? Crashes?

What the subscription buys you is input into support for future games, and support for copy protected games, and precompiled binaries. The base is free minus DRM support, provided you download from CVS and compile yourself (maybe get around DRM support by installing a crack?). You could probably sign up for 1 month then keep the binary and cancel subscription, but games released after this may not work, requiring later revisions of WineX.

Pu-239 wrote:

Sokartawi wrote:

Pu-239 wrote:As for Wine, you need to get WineX for games (5$/month).

Hmm not going to pay subscription fees for anything. That's why I got my own UO server. I buy the game and expansions in shop, but no way in hell I'm going to pay subscriptions. Plus I don't even have a creditcard. But how is this program? Do all windows games run flawlessly? Still problems? Crashes?

What the subscription buys you is input into support for future games, and support for copy protected games, and precompiled binaries. The base is free minus DRM support, provided you download from CVS and compile yourself (maybe get around DRM support by installing a crack?). You could probably sign up for 1 month then keep the binary and cancel subscription, but games released after this may not work, requiring later revisions of WineX.

Ah ok, that's quite a reasonable deal. I don't need to play the latest games right away, so I could just suscribe/unsuscribe when I want then. Still need a creditcard for that though.