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1. The ICSs are (at least partially) based on the official material. How they can be canon? Shouldn't they be the highest level of official? I do not like to place them into the same category as the novelization of ANH (written by GL).
2. What about the older movies? Some scenes are only showed in the previous versions (especially scenes containing death).

vakundok wrote:1. The ICSs are (at least partially) based on the official material. How they can be canon? Shouldn't they be the highest level of official? I do not like to place them into the same category as the novelization of ANH (written by GL).

Some of the calculations in the Ep2 ICS may have had official derivation, but that doesn't mean they can't be canon. And besides, Lucasfilm says they're canon, so they are. End of story.

2. What about the older movies? Some scenes are only showed in the previous versions (especially scenes containing death).

*shrug*

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote:1. The ICSs are (at least partially) based on the official material. How they can be canon? Shouldn't they be the highest level of official? I do not like to place them into the same category as the novelization of ANH (written by GL).

Some of the calculations in the Ep2 ICS may have had official derivation, but that doesn't mean they can't be canon. And besides, Lucasfilm says they're canon, so they are. End of story.

I ment the now canon fact that ISDs can carry and launch AT-ATs. There are no other canon resource indicating this (as long as I know) and this makes the rebells on Hoth simply stupid, since they were unprepared for the primary ground vehicles carried by the primary warships of the empire.

vakundok wrote: I ment the now canon fact that ISDs can carry and launch AT-ATs. There are no other canon resource indicating this (as long as I know) and this makes the rebells on Hoth simply stupid, since they were unprepared for the primary ground vehicles carried by the primary warships of the empire.

So because they didn't have effective means of resisting them, they must've not known that they were standard Imperial weaponry carried on ISDs? Don't be ridiculous.

Vympel wrote:So because they didn't have effective means of resisting them, they must've not known that they were standard Imperial weaponry carried on ISDs? Don't be ridiculous.

Possibilities:
1.: They have even access to weapons capable fo taking out an ISD in no time. They have also acces to capital ships and their weaponry, fighter weapons and actually everything, except heavy anti-tank weaponry. THIS is what I call ridiculousness. Problem: Illogical and unreal.
2.: The official literature and the ICS are wrong and the ISD does not carry AT-ATs. Problem: The ICS is officially canon. (I say officially because the final authority is GL not LFL.)
3.: They do not know that the most common warship of the empire carries AT-ATs. Problem: Very unlikely. They have access to things kept in far higher secrecy and it requires that no ISD used its AT-ATs prior to Hoth.
4.: They know about the AT-ATs onboard the ISDs, but do not prepare. Problem: They are not stupid.
Do you know other possibilities?

vakundok wrote:Possibilities:
1.: They have even access to weapons capable fo taking out an ISD in no time. They have also acces to capital ships and their weaponry, fighter weapons and actually everything, except heavy anti-tank weaponry. THIS is what I call ridiculousness. Problem: Illogical and unreal.

No, it's not illogical or unreal. The Rebels had common sense- their fleet couldn't stand up to an Imperial fleet attack, and keeping capital ships there would've just meant more losses when boom time came- furthermore, Rebel capital ships had more important things to do with their time than guard Echo Base- for example- raid Imperial shipping.

Fighter's wouldn't have stopped the Imperial attack on Hoth- if they were capable of using X-Wing's in the fight, the Empire would've sent TIE Fighters as well. The Rebels limited themselves to repulsor craft under the shield, logical considering they were under threat of bombardment.

2.: The official literature and the ICS are wrong and the ISD does not carry AT-ATs. Problem: The ICS is officially canon. (I say officially because the final authority is GL not LFL.)

I can't believe someone is seriously making the proposition that to carry AT-ATs on Imperial capital ships is highly irregular, personally. It doesn't fly for the reasons I set out above.

3.: They do not know that the most common warship of the empire carries AT-ATs. Problem: Very unlikely. They have access to things kept in far higher secrecy and it requires that no ISD used its AT-ATs prior to Hoth.
4.: They know about the AT-ATs onboard the ISDs, but do not prepare. Problem: They are not stupid.

Do you know other possibilities?

Yes, the possibility being that knowing of AT-ATs existence and being able to stop them does not make it 'stupid' not to 'prepare' for them in ways that they could not. You seem to advocate the Rebel Fleet defending Hoth to the inevitable death simply because AT-ATs exist, rather than acting like smart guerillas and knowing when to fight and when to run.

It seems that you misinterpreted my first point and as a result, my whole post (except point two). I was talking about the weaponry, not the ships or fighters themselves and used them only as examples for the fact that on the black market nearly every kind of weaponry is available. What is illogical and unreal is to suppose that heavy anti-tank weaponry was not available to the rebells on the black market.
About point two: Still, the propostion has been made. If you watch the early sketches for the ISD you will see that while the fighter compliment was designed, large ground vehicles were not. Besides, it is very problematic to find a way, how the AT-ATs could be deployed (especially in the case of the ISD II).
Side note:
http://web.axelero.hu/antibor/ISDIbay2lined.jpg
Both the docking arm of the corvette and the distance between the engine blocks (the green line) are approximately 10 meters. It suggests that the door in the rear wall is barely 15 metres high while the ICS suggests more than 20 (approximately as high as the whole engine block). Compare this image with the ICS diagram and decide whether the ICS really deserves to be canon.

Ender wrote:Inside the Worlds and VDs are of the same level as ICS. The side box in I68 labels them all as nonfiction.

Did they recieve LFL's imprimateur as canon.

It seemed to me the thing that made the ICS special was that they went to Skywalker Ranch and got the details first hand, and were even relied upon as sources for the newer movies.

What's this about nonfiction? What's it say? *runs off to check I68*

vakundok wrote:2. What about the older movies? Some scenes are only showed in the previous versions (especially scenes containing death).

I'm sure the original versions complement the Special Editions in the movie canon, but Sansweet specifically fingers the SE in his Encyclopedia statement, and GL himself has expounded on how the SE is the "true" movie. For the OT, it is the most true movie canon.

vakundok wrote:What is illogical and unreal is to suppose that heavy anti-tank weaponry was not available to the rebells on the black market.

Why? To take a real world example, the black market for arms has a host of weapons you could buy if the price is right, that doesn't mean that you must necessarily be able to get your hands on them, or that these weapons are effective against the weapons of the ruling power. Case in point, Iraq. There is no weapon you could find on the black market capable of killing an Abrams in a stand up fight. None.

About point two: Still, the propostion has been made. If you watch the early sketches for the ISD you will see that while the fighter compliment was designed, large ground vehicles were not.

Besides, it is very problematic to find a way, how the AT-ATs could be deployed (especially in the case of the ISD II).
Side note:
http://web.axelero.hu/antibor/ISDIbay2lined.jpg
Both the docking arm of the corvette and the distance between the engine blocks (the green line) are approximately 10 meters. It suggests that the door in the rear wall is barely 15 metres high while the ICS suggests more than 20 (approximately as high as the whole engine block). Compare this image with the ICS diagram and decide whether the ICS really deserves to be canon.

No one said that the ICS was canon equal with the movies Regardless, a screenshot from ANH does not override the fact that AT-AT's are carried by Star Destroyers. They are carried on landing barges, and there is no reason to assume that they must be at their full height at all times. We already know that they can deploy their troops by kneeling or by rappel.

To use your own reasoning against you, does TPM deserve to be canon, since the R2 unit does not fit into the N-1 fighter? The ICS came up with the fix for that, you know, as it came up with the fix for a Millenium Falcon whoose external model was too small for the internal spaces, as well as a logical layout for the Corellian Corvette. It ABSOLUTELY' deserves' to be canon, not that 'deserves' has anything to do with it. In case you missed the first post- there are levels of canon, and all answer to the movies.

Vympel wrote:They are carried on landing barges, and there is no reason to assume that they must be at their full height at all times. We already know that they can deploy their troops by kneeling or by rappel.

We KNOW from sources, including Force Commander, that they are in fact stored folded and transported as such.

vakundok is wrong.

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote:What is illogical and unreal is to suppose that heavy anti-tank weaponry was not available to the rebells on the black market.

Why? To take a real world example, the black market for arms has a host of weapons you could buy if the price is right, that doesn't mean that you must necessarily be able to get your hands on them, or that these weapons are effective against the weapons of the ruling power. Case in point, Iraq. There is no weapon you could find on the black market capable of killing an Abrams in a stand up fight. None.

In the real world example no weapons can be bought that are clearly overwhelming to the main destroyer of the US navy. In the SW universe, it can. So, far far more powerfull weapons can be bought and the real world example does not fit.

vakundok wrote:Besides, it is very problematic to find a way, how the AT-ATs could be deployed (especially in the case of the ISD II).

they are in fact stored folded and transported as such.

That is a way. But I think you will agree that it is not a simple way. Besides the AT-AT in the ICS seems to stand!

Vympel wrote:To use your own reasoning against you, does TPM deserve to be canon, since the R2 unit does not fit into the N-1 fighter?

That that ISDs carry AT-ATs is (on canon level) stated only in the ICS whitch canonity I question. What you are talking about is stated in the movie. Do you question the canonity of the movie? If not, the situation is far from being similar.

Vympel wrote:In case you missed the first post- there are levels of canon, and all answer to the movies.

Please, let me know how the fact that ISDs carry AT-ATs answer to the fact that the rebells were unprepared for them, despite they bought far far more powerfull weapons that could take out AT-ATs.

Because, idiot, the ion cannon is necessary to clear a direct opposition to evacuation: the Star Destroyers.

The AT-ATs are only a secondary threat, and Echo Base was always designed to be evacuated quickly. The ion cannon was a necessity, heavy anti-armor weapons were not.

It was going to be ISDs that'd foul the evacuation vessels flight to safety, which was the first and last priority of Echo Base, not the AT-ATs. And the Rebels didn't have the cash to go around to outfit their base with heavy, expensive anti-armor weapons which were not a necessity and would likely require more power and not be able to be evacuated with other equipment--in other words, a waste.

vakundok wrote:In the real world example no weapons can be bought that are clearly overwhelming to the main destroyer of the US navy. In the SW universe, it can. So, far far more powerfull weapons can be bought and the real world example does not fit.

You're missing the point of Echo Base: it was temporary. Once the Empire found them, the best walker-stopping artillery in the world wouldn't save them from the Imperial Starfleet. That's why the defensive cannons was to STALL the walkers while they evacuated.

That is a way. But I think you will agree that it is not a simple way. Besides the AT-AT in the ICS seems to stand!

Perhaps the illustartor of the ICS's ISD messed up the sizing but that doesn't change the fact that ISDs do carry AT-ATs, and they can kneel to be more compact.

That that ISDs carry AT-ATs is (on canon level) stated only in the ICS whitch canonity I question.

SW Insider #68 says the ICSs have "LucasFilm's imprimatur as canon". It's canon, deal with it.

Please, let me know how the fact that ISDs carry AT-ATs answer to the fact that the rebells were unprepared for them, despite they bought far far more powerfull weapons that could take out AT-ATs.

I don't have to tell you again that Hoth was a temporary base and for those reasons didn't need those weapons.

As already pointed out, destroying the AT-ATs does no good for the Rebels. Sure, they've gotten some time, but so what? Vader has more ready to land, unless you seriously think that the Dark Lord wouldn't want the best equipment for finding and capturing Skywalker. Eventually, you're going to lose, so you should just cut your losses and get out while you can.

Darth Yoshi wrote:As already pointed out, destroying the AT-ATs does no good for the Rebels. Sure, they've gotten some time, but so what? Vader has more ready to land, unless you seriously think that the Dark Lord wouldn't want the best equipment for finding and capturing Skywalker. Eventually, you're going to lose, so you should just cut your losses and get out while you can.

Plus, the more time you waste taking out walkers, the more time the Imperial fleet has to cut off all availible escape routes.

BTW, vakundok, George Lucas did NOT write the ANH novelization. Alan Dean Foster did.

Lord Poe wrote:BTW, vakundok, George Lucas did NOT write the ANH novelization. Alan Dean Foster did.

Thanks. I was confused because it is credited to GL.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And the Rebels didn't have the cash to go around to outfit their base with heavy, expensive anti-armor weapons which were not a necessity and would likely require more power and not be able to be evacuated with other equipment--in other words, a waste.

They outfitted their base with artillery uncapable of stopping the primary ground vessel stored onboard the most common warship. THIS was a waste. The evacuation had the highest priority, it is true. However the evacuation had to be accelerated because they were unable to stop the AT-ATs. And the evacuation being unproper (accelerated) hurts its priority.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:SW Insider #68 says the ICSs have "LucasFilm's imprimatur as canon". It's canon, deal with it.

I have two reasonings. You will find them nitpicking but they stand:
Reasoning A:
1. At the time of the filming of ANH the AT-AT did not exist. So, the Devastator modell originally neither carried nor was designed to carry them. So unless contradicted by higher level canon the ISDs in the original ANH did not carry AT-ATs. (Despite the ICS shows an AT-AT and the Tantive IV together.)
2. The Special Edition did not add any clue contradicting point 1, so it is the highest level applicable.
Reasoning B:
Unlike in the case of the N1/R2 combo, the canon do not need the AT-ATs carried by ISDs assumption. And also no canon resource implies it. (Until the Infinite Edition will show it.) So, this statement was NOT based on canon, but instead was based on official. Any statement based on official cannot be higher level than official. And any book mentioning official statements as facts cannot be higher than official.

Actually I imagine the canon as being Lucas' wisdom. Something that adds new things (eg.: like deck plans) to it is not canon, unless GL's personal approval.

vakundok wrote:They outfitted their base with artillery uncapable of stopping the primary ground vessel stored onboard the most common warship. THIS was a waste.

Yeah, they also didn't have a planetary shield that can't be walked under either.

The evacuation had the highest priority, it is true. However the evacuation had to be accelerated because they were unable to stop the AT-ATs.

Nope. It was accelerated because the Empire knew they were there. They were already resigned to the fact that they could'nt hold off an Imperial attack. They were never meant to. Do you think they were lazily going about evacuating the base as the ISDs approached because they didn't account for walkers being used?

I have two reasonings. You will find them nitpicking but they stand:
Reasoning A:
1. At the time of the filming of ANH the AT-AT did not exist. So, the Devastator modell originally neither carried nor was designed to carry them. So unless contradicted by higher level canon the ISDs in the original ANH did not carry AT-ATs. (Despite the ICS shows an AT-AT and the Tantive IV together.)

Your reasoning is flawed in the extreme. Read the canon rules and regs on this site, Saxton's site, and my site. A lower canon source cannot override the movies. THEREFORE you must canon movie proof from ANH
that the ISD WASN'T carrying walkers. If you CAN'T, the canon ICS stands.

vakundok wrote: In the real world example no weapons can be bought that are clearly overwhelming to the main destroyer of the US navy. In the SW universe, it can. So, far far more powerfull weapons can be bought and the real world example does not fit.

Slothful generalization. Explain how possessing an ion cannon must necessarily mean that they are capable of purchasing 'heavy anti-tank weapons'. In particular, describe what heavy anti-tank weapons the Rebels could've used against the AT-ATs.

That that ISDs carry AT-ATs is (on canon level) stated only in the ICS whitch canonity I question. What you are talking about is stated in the movie. Do you question the canonity of the movie? If not, the situation is far from being similar.

You're missing the point. The R2D2 not fitting properly into the N-1 is a mistake at the highest level of canon. Regardless, the ICS came up with a fix for it. The presence of a possible fudge in a canon source does not mean that it's not canon. One thing determines the canonicity of a source: what Lucasfilm says.

Vympel wrote: Please, let me know how the fact that ISDs carry AT-ATs answer to the fact that the rebells were unprepared for them, despite they bought far far more powerfull weapons that could take out AT-ATs.

*What* more powerful weapons that could take out AT-ATs?! Your entire 'argument' is based on the proposition that if the ICS is canon then the rebels must be stupid for not taking out AT-ATs with weapons you don't even know to exist.

the only guns capable of taking out a AT-AT's are mounted on the AT-AT! The Black Market does not have access to them because the Empire likes it that way. The Rebellion's Base at Hoth was just starting out and was not intended to be perminent. The movie implies that they had just barely moved into the place when the movie starts. they had just started to unpack and they have to evacuate. Even if they had these heavy artillery they would not have had time to set the things up anyway!

If I may point out one of the very first incidents in the TESB radio drama has a rebel convoy carrying vital supplies to the fledgling base getting wiped out in an Imperial ambush.

Wild Karrde wrote:If I may point out one of the very first incidents in the TESB radio drama has a rebel convoy carrying vital supplies to the fledgling base getting wiped out in an Imperial ambush.

And what it carried is definatly open to speculation isn't it

The thing that carries at-ats could just carry them out of the ship sideways, with the feet toward the things engines and landing legs. Problem solved.

The KDY v-150 ion cannon does indeed demonstrate that the Rebels have access to high-powered military-grade weaponry. They probably could get heavy cannons powerful enough to destroy AT-AT walkers, but this would be counterproductive since even the heaviest fortifications wouldn't be enough to stop a full-fledged assault by Vader's forces.

The Rebels know full well that all they can hope to do is slow down the Imperials, and that's why the v-150 is the only heavy artillery piece they have -- anything they can't take with them on the evacuation transports has to be abandoned, and they simply don't have the resources to buy big, expensive anti-walker cannons that are only going to give them a few more minutes anyway.