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Anyone who says the Turks don't have good judgement and aren't on our side can now change their mind:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/11/inter ... ner=GOOGLE

THE HAGUE, Tuesday, March 11 — The United Nations announced today that peace talks between the Greek and Turkish leaders of divided Cyprus had ended in failure and there would be no more negotiations.

"Regrettably these efforts were not a success," said a statement by the United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan. "We have reached the end of the road."

Mr. Annan's special envoy for Cyprus, Alvara de Soto, read out the statement at a news conference after marathon talks held by Mr. Annan with the Greek Cypriot leader, Tassos Papadopoulos, and the Turkish Cypriot leader, Rauf Denktash.

Cyprus has been partitioned since Turkish troops invaded in 1974, seizing more than one-third of the Mediterranean island in response to a coup by Greek Cypriot militants seeking union with Greece.

Mr. Annan had asked the two leaders to meet him in The Hague in a last-ditch effort to get agreement on a United Nations peace plan to reunite the island.

He had hoped to persuade them to hold referendums on the plan on March 30 so that a united Cyprus could sign an accession treaty in mid-April to join the European Union.

Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Denktash signaled when they arrived in The Hague on Monday morning that they were unhappy with the power-sharing plan, partly because it would involve handovers of territory and population movements.

Mr. Denktash said the handover of some Turkish Cypriot territory would create refugees and throw many Turkish Cypriots out of their homes.

Many Greek Cypriots oppose the plan because it commits them to sharing power with a minority and restricts the number of Greek Cypriot refugees who would be able to return to their former homes.

Mr. Annan's proposal was the latest of numerous diplomatic efforts to reunite the island, and the Monday deadline he gave the two leaders for reaching agreement was the second in the current series of negotiations.

Britain, the former colonial power, and the United States had thrown their weight behind Mr. Annan's efforts, building on the impetus of Cyprus's impending accession to the European Union.

Turkey supported the Turkish Cypriot opposition to the United Nations plan, although a peace deal is crucial for Turkey's hopes of joining the European Union. The failure of the talks leaves Turkey at odds with Brussels.

The internationally recognized Cyprus government, the Greek Cypriot part of the island, is due to sign the European Union accession treaty on April 16 and to join the bloc in May 2004.

On Monday, Mr. Annan had suggested that the two leaders take a few more days to try to reach an agreement, and he had urged both men to call for referendums on the United Nations' unification plan.

Mr. Annan said he had hoped for a simple "yes or no" response on the referendum proposal. Instead, diplomats said, he was told by both sides that they wanted more time to discuss their differences.

Despite lengthy negotiations late into the night, the two parties remained at odds.

Comments: We can all be sincerely thankful for this. Any "power-sharing" plan would have just seen another wholesale slaughter of hapless Muslim minorities by the Christians of southeastern Europe, as has been going on since the Russians started supporting and arming them in the 18th century to support their ambition of seizing "Constantinople". Only the Turkish Army saves the Turkish peoples of Cyprus from the inevitably genocidal result of Enosis.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Comments: We can all be sincerely thankful for this. Any "power-sharing" plan would have just seen another wholesale slaughter of hapless Muslim minorities

Uh uh, like how we saved a bunch of murderous fuckheads in Kosovo?

The KLA is nothing but a murderous bunch of brigands, and we stopped
the Serbian government from liquidating them...and what do we get for
"saving" fellow muslims? 9/11.

MKSheppard wrote:


Uh uh, like how we saved a bunch of murderous fuckheads in Kosovo?

The KLA is nothing but a murderous bunch of brigands, and we stopped
the Serbian government from liquidating them...and what do we get for
"saving" fellow muslims? 9/11.

Kosovoars didn't crash those planes into the twin towers. That said, they would have and are happily slaughtered Serbs in return.

I'll always remember a piece of correspondence from the turn of the century between an Ottoman General and one of the government ministers back in Istanbul. I can't replicate the exact wording but the gist of it was "if we weren't here guarding all the inmates in the asylum they'd be at each other's throats in five minutes." Well, we destroyed the asylum guard - The Ottoman Empire - And all the inmates in the Balkans and for that matter the Mid-East are at each other's throats.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Comments: We can all be sincerely thankful for this. Any "power-sharing" plan would have just seen another wholesale slaughter of hapless Muslim minorities by the Christians of southeastern Europe, as has been going on since the Russians started supporting and arming them in the 18th century to support their ambition of seizing "Constantinople". Only the Turkish Army saves the Turkish peoples of Cyprus from the inevitably genocidal result of Enosis.

This whole situation exists just because Turkey invaded Cyprus in the first place. And thus have to station the army there.
The leaders are just affraid to let go some of their powers. And it will get ugly once Cyprus is in the EU. Bad times for Turkey...

Dahak wrote: This whole situation exists just because Turkey invaded Cyprus in the first place. And thus have to station the army there.

To protect the Turkoman population from what I just outlined! But let us not debate that; I suspect we'd never come to an agreement.

The leaders are just affraid to let go some of their powers.

Hardly. They know what would come to them under Greek rule. Experience has taught them that, a process endlessly repeated, bloody and quietly covered Reconquista in the Balkans, that the Greeks are determined not to stop with until they have Constantinople in their hands.

And it will get ugly once Cyprus is in the EU. Bad times for Turkey...

Turkey will annex Turkish Cyprus if you like in Greek Cyprus without this issue being resolved to their satisfaction.

Furthermore, the times are hardly bad for Turkey - If they do step onboard with us, we'd take care of them on this issue. The USA watches out for its allies.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Dahak wrote: This whole situation exists just because Turkey invaded Cyprus in the first place. And thus have to station the army there.

To protect the Turkoman population from what I just outlined! But let us not debate that; I suspect we'd never come to an agreement.

It's more the ever-present mutual hatred of Greeks and Turks.

The leaders are just affraid to let go some of their powers.

Hardly. They know what would come to them under Greek rule. Experience has taught them that, a process endlessly repeated, bloody and quietly covered Reconquista in the Balkans, that the Greeks are determined not to stop with until they have Constantinople in their hands.

It wouldn't have been a Greek rule. But the Turks flatly refused to talk about it in the first place.

And it will get ugly once Cyprus is in the EU. Bad times for Turkey...

Turkey will annex Turkish Cyprus if you like in Greek Cyprus without this issue being resolved to their satisfaction.

Furthermore, the times are hardly bad for Turkey - If they do step onboard with us, we'd take care of them on this issue. The USA watches out for its allies.

All the help of the USA won't get Turkey what they really, desperately, want: to join the EU. And if Turkey would do funny business with Cyprus, a then-EU member, they have kicked the chances they had in the gutter...

Marina, your paranoia is truly scary. You think there's some master plan for Greece to take back a city that's been gone for almost 600 years? No one gives a shit for chrissakes.

And your 'poor Turks' rhetoric grates on me. I know what 400 years of occupation by the Ottomans did for Greece, thanks very much.

"as has been going on since the Russians started supporting and arming them in the 18th century to support their ambition of seizing "Constantinople"

Yes, you'd prefer to see Greece still under Turkish occupation, for the pleasure of your rampant Turkophilia.

The Turkish Cypriots are all quite eager for peace and joing the EU- the squalor of the Turkish part compared to the relatively opulent Greek half probably has something to do it. The Turkish Cypriot leader is a dumbfuck.

The Greeks are just angry because the Turks took all of their beautiful women and quality military men several centuries ago and some of them actually liked leaving home, and now the Greek people consist of Russia Babushka equivlants and leering caricatures of Mediterranean crude old men.

Vympel: ah fuck. Pushed EDIT instead of quote. Anyway.

Yeah. We believe you. *g* No hard feelings intended, really - It was in jest.

Funny- if the Turks took all our military men, then who were all those experienced, disciplined Greek sailors who annihilated the Ottoman fleet during the war of independence? Ooops.

British, Russians, and French? Or did you recognize that even as you typed it?

As for our women, I wont even dignify that with a response, considering that I have yet to meet a good looking Turkish girl.

I've seen more than several who look just fine, thank you.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Dahak wrote:[
It's more the ever-present mutual hatred of Greeks and Turks.

The Greeks are just angry because the Turks took all of their beautiful women and quality military men several centuries ago and some of them actually liked leaving home, and now the Greek people consist of Russia Babushka equivlants and leering caricatures of Mediterranean crude old men.

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)

Cyprus, at least the Greek part, is also a huge tourist spot. So there's a tad bit more to it...

It wouldn't have been a Greek rule. But the Turks flatly refused to talk about it in the first place.

Notice the story I told Mark? The Turks had been holding down the Asylum for a long time. You get a bit wary when it comes to negotiating with the escaped inmates after that.

All the help of the USA won't get Turkey what they really, desperately, want: to join the EU. And if Turkey would do funny business with Cyprus, a then-EU member, they have kicked the chances they had in the gutter...

We can offer them far more than the EU ever could, and at far less of a cost to the national identity that Mustafa Kemal built for them with such a sacrifice.

Unfortunately, they don't want closer ties with the USA, but Europe, because they see themselves as Europeans. They wouldn't have endured those looooong years of negotiations and talks, if they weren't desperate to join.

It's not paranoia, and no, I don't think there's a master plan. However:

1. Greek nationalism is caught up heavily in the Orthodox Church. Greece is one of the more conservative EU countries. You're either a socialist - and a pretty fanatical one - or one of the more genuine nationalists in Greece. That's why Greece has taken some time to stabilize and get admitted to the EU. They got to have some "fun" post-WWII unlike most of the rest of Europe up until the 90s, after all.

2. Capturing Constantinople was in fact the goal of the Prime Minister Venizelos when he joined the Entente during WWI. It had been the goal of the nationalist movement during the 19th century, and that was their best shot at its realization.

So my claim is hardly a fantasy - Greek nationalism is based around seizing Thrace and Constantinople, nevermind western Anatolia.

The campaign which Mustafa Kemal defeated in Anatolia in fact had just that goal - Exceeding the small chunk of the OE the Greeks had gotten and trying to drive the Turks on to the Anatolian plateau so the coast could be secured. Constantinople was probably out of reach by then, but the possession of all western Anatolia was definitely a Greek goal at that point

Everyone gave a shit about it then; it was a pressing concern of the Greek State.

I haven't levelled the playing field nearly half as much as could be done. The simple fact is that The Black Turk, the Demon Turk, or simply The Turk has always been the bogeyman of Europe, and things happened in the Balkans, sanctioned by AH or Russia and ignored by other powers, often committed by the small states or by christian ethnic minorities. Very nasty things:

For instance, there is no modern Bulgarian ethnic group! So, then, you might ask - Who populates Bulgaria? Well, the area was originally populated by Muslims - It was entirely christian minority. In a steady process since the 1870s through 1913 - a mere fourty odd years - the state of Bulgaria was created with Russian support as a fictional object from the various ethnic groups of the region, and the minority Christian population that had been there to begin with.

The Muslims that lived there as a majority group? They were slaughtered, or displaced enmasse, with the typical mass deaths that accompany such displacements. Why don't we hear anything about this, a tactic which was repeated several times in the history of the Balkans? Because, of course, it was done against the Muslims of the region - While the Armenians, Christians killed in open total warfare against not only the regular Turkish army but Kurdish irregulars, rate the term "genocide" for what happened to them.

No, actually, I wouldn't. I do, however, think that the border of Greece should halt at Thessaloniki in the east, the current border in the north, and everything above it to the Danube and the Sava should be Muslim and Ottoman Turkish, excepting the legitimate core states of Serbia and Montenegro.


Squalor enforced, of course, by the flight from Greek Cyprus, the lack of trade with Greek Cyprus, and the refusal of the international community to recognize Turkish Cyprus as an independent State, with the opportunities that would provide said nation.

Vympel note: I accidentally pused EDIT again. Goddamit. It's late. Sorry.

Unfortunately, they don't want closer ties with the USA, but Europe, because they see themselves as Europeans. They wouldn't have endured those looooong years of negotiations and talks, if they weren't desperate to join.

They don't like Europe enough to sacrifice fellow Turks to join it, and they've just proven that. So we're the next best thing.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It's not paranoia, and no, I don't think there's a master plan. However:

1. Greek nationalism is caught up heavily in the Orthodox Church. Greece is one of the more conservative EU countries. You're either a socialist - and a pretty fanatical one - or one of the more genuine nationalists in Greece. That's why Greece has taken some time to stabilize and get admitted to the EU. They got to have some "fun" post-WWII unlike most of the rest of Europe up until the 90s, after all.

Because of the Orthodox Church? What about the civil war after Nazi occupation and super power meddling?

2. Capturing Constantinople was in fact the goal of the Prime Minister Venizelos when he joined the Entente during WWI. It had been the goal of the nationalist movement during the 19th century, and that was their best shot at its realization.

In the past.

So my claim is hardly a fantasy - Greek nationalism is based around seizing Thrace and Constantinople, nevermind western Anatolia.

Nowadays solely the preserve of very old men.

The campaign which Mustafa Kemal defeated in Anatolia in fact had just that goal - Exceeding the small chunk of the OE the Greeks had gotten and trying to drive the Turks on to the Anatolian plateau so the coast could be secured. Constantinople was probably out of reach by then, but the possession of all western Anatolia was definitely a Greek goal at that point

Everyone gave a shit about it then; it was a pressing concern of the Greek State.

But not anymore. This isn't 1921. It's got nothing to do with Cyprus.

I haven't levelled the playing field nearly half as much as could be done. The simple fact is that The Black Turk, the Demon Turk, or simply The Turk has always been the bogeyman of Europe, and things happened in the Balkans, sanctioned by AH or Russia and ignored by other powers, often committed by the small states or by christian ethnic minorities. Very nasty things:

For instance, there is no modern Bulgarian ethnic group! So, then, you might ask - Who populates Bulgaria? Well, the area was originally populated by Muslims - It was entirely christian minority. In a steady process since the 1870s through 1913 - a mere fourty odd years - the state of Bulgaria was created with Russian support as a fictional object from the various ethnic groups of the region, and the minority Christian population that had been there to begin with.

The Muslims that lived there as a majority group? They were slaughtered, or displaced enmasse, with the typical mass deaths that accompany such displacements. Why don't we hear anything about this, a tactic which was repeated several times in the history of the Balkans? Because, of course, it was done against the Muslims of the region - While the Armenians, Christians killed in open total warfare against not only the regular Turkish army but Kurdish irregulars, rate the term "genocide" for what happened to them.

Sources?

No, actually, I wouldn't. I do, however, think that the border of Greece should halt at Thessaloniki in the east, the current border in the north, and everything above it to the Danube and the Sava should be Muslim and Ottoman Turkish, excepting the legitimate core states of Serbia and Montenegro.

How does that make you any better than tired old Greek nationalists who wanna get Constantinople back? Heck- we should take all of Anatolia back. After all- the Turks started it.

Squalor enforced, of course, by the flight from Greek Cyprus, the lack of trade with Greek Cyprus, and the refusal of the international community to recognize Turkish Cyprus as an independent State, with the opportunities that would provide said nation.

Trade: Whose fault is that? Greeks fled 'Turkish' Cyprus as well, and as for Turkish Cyprus being an independent state- I don't expect a state created by an invasion to get such recognition.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: and everything above it to the Danube and the Sava should be Muslim and Ottoman Turkish, excepting the legitimate core states of Serbia and Montenegro.

I don't think Rumania would like that idea...nor would the Russians...

http://www.grid.unep.ch/proser/maps/europe/danubeb.jpg

British, Russians, and French? Or did you recognize that even as you typed it?

No, I mean the Greek sailors who made up most of the manpower Ottoman Navy at the outbreak of the war of independence, who all up and left, forcing the turks to go to their own, inferior sailors. Of course, nothing's changed since Obviously- not so many liked Turkey over Greece as you seemed to think hmmmm

I've seen more than several who look just fine, thank you.

Meh.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:No, actually, I wouldn't. I do, however, think that the border of Greece should halt at Thessaloniki in the east, the current border in the north, and everything above it to the Danube and the Sava should be Muslim and Ottoman Turkish, excepting the legitimate core states of Serbia and Montenegro.

And everything from the Alsace to Silesia should be German territory.

Face it, we don't always get what we want or once had.

Marina, quite simply fuck off. Do you honestly believe the shit that you sprout? The Ottaman Empire was a despotic demon on anyone who actually lived it, i.e. both Greeks, Turks, Slavs and any other ethnicity that was involved. Fun fact, Greeks were charged in order to go to Church! Do you believe that all Greeks are somehow making up their 400 years of oppresion?

But that is neither simply here nor there. The Μέγα Ιδέα came about from the 'first king Greece' who was appointed by *gasp* the powers that be at the time. Thankfully it died when the monarchy was rejected and the Hellenic Republic was formed. No Greek denies that the junta inspired coup was what resulted in Turkey's invasion, but the continue occupation of the island is illegal as confirmed by the UN refusing to even recognise the northern part of the island as a seperate state.

All that Denktash has achieved is in keeping his people back another 25 years. And I find it extremely funny how you seem to be so more well informed than the Turkish Cypriots who would rather see an end to their isolation and a reunification. I am sure they appreciate your support (and yes that was sarcasm).

Dahak wrote: And everything from the Alsace to Silesia should be German territory.

I can hear the bitchslap from all over here!

MKSheppard wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: and everything above it to the Danube and the Sava should be Muslim and Ottoman Turkish, excepting the legitimate core states of Serbia and Montenegro.

I don't think Rumania would like that idea...nor would the Russians...

http://www.grid.unep.ch/proser/maps/europe/danubeb.jpg

This map protrays what I mean better:

http://www.naqshbandi.org/ottomans/maps/declinemap.gif

Broadly, looking at the Empire after the Crimean War:

Moldavia and Wallachia were Vassal States which would soon be unified into Rumania and would eventually gain independence after the Russo-Turkish War of '78. Obviously they should have it. The Besserabian annexation was actually partially reversed during the Crimean War - a small slice went to Moldavia, but in '78 this was restored to Russia in exchange for the Danube-Coastal strip.

Bulgaria was independent in two phases: Bulgaria proper autonomous as a vassal in '78, and East Rumelia with certain internal privilages in the same year. Bulgaria annexed East Rumelia in '85. It was later further expanded, but I'll cover that in a moment.

The Serbian territory shown vaguely has two lines in it. One expands eastward into Nis, and the other covers the gap to Montenegro. The map lists it as going to Austro-Hungary. However, Austro-Hungary only occupied and administered Bosnia-Herzegovina after '78 - Both were still parts of the Ottoman Empire and that strip had a rail link in it, and seperated Montenegro from Serbia. In the First Balkan War it was overrun by Serbia.


Pausing before the First Balkan War for a moment, we'll note that Crete was autonomous as of '98. That was because of the Turko-Greek war of that year. In the late 1890s a Greek Secret Society agitated for the liberation of Crete from Turkish rule and brought about a revolt there, commencing massacres against the Turkish populace. The Ottomans brought in troops and repressed the revolt severely and brutally, responding in kind. This generated outrage in Europe and the Greeks then threw up a blockade around the island. Unsurprisingly this devolved into a proper war, to sumarize - In which the Ottoman Army, just reorganized by Colmar von der Goltz, crushed the Greeks in a few brief weeks and took back a some bits of Thessaly.

The European powers came in and imposed a settlement whereby Crete would have autonomy inside the Empire and would be run by a commissioner who would always be Christian, in that case a German princeling. The result was further repression against the Muslim minority.

Next along we had the Balkan Wars, of course - following Austria's outright annexation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which gave us the stage for the madman's shot - in which various alliances of the Balkan powers, first against Turkey and then including Turkey against Bulgaria, fought over the remnants of Turkey's European Empire and how it would be apportioned.

The end result was a rather large Bulgaria with a Mediterranean coastline - Greece would annex it to reach the size it is today - Macedonian divided up among the various powers, Serbian conquests of Muslim regions, and the idiocy of placing a German Prince as King of Muslim Albania, which did not last long - Until the outbreak of the First World War, to be precisely, when he fled for his life, poor old Wilhelm zu Wied.


Anyway, as Bulgaria and the other powers advanced they drove the Muslims - sometimes settled Turks and other peoples from other parts of a vast multi-ethnic Empire, sometimes locals who had converted - out, or forcibly converted them, or outright slaughtered them. Bulgaria is the most successful of the Balkan States at this, but it is called "the Prussia of the Balkans" after all. Serbia, of course, is another example of this and has still been trying up until the present day. The Greeks found a more blatant way of doing it in the Treaty of Lausanne - Population exchange.

Basically, the history of the Balkans is one of madhouse genocide. Tito was just imitating the Ottoman Empire in knocking heads and keeping the peace for fifty years. It was absolutely no surprise what happened when his Yugoslavia failed to transition. No, we can't turn back the clock, but I can sure as hell regret things didn't go differently, and hope they've stopped and that we can maybe draw a line and refuse to let this murderous idiocy continue. NATO was too weak-willed to do it with Serbia. I don't think Turkey and the USA will be with Cyprus, however.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: NATO was too weak-willed to do it with Serbia.

Maybe because once we won the war, we saw that the KLA was a bunch
of murderous psychopaths no better than Slobodoan Milosevic.

Dahak wrote: And everything from the Alsace to Silesia should be German territory.

Face it, we don't always get what we want or once had.

Well, if you'd won the Great War, it might be, and legitimately, too. There certainly might have been benefits to a German victory in that conflict, at least a quick and decisive one in the first year.

I mean, if your fleet relies on the loyalty of your subject peoples, you shouldn't count on it anyway.

Well hey, you were the one who said we 'liked' leaving


Vympel EDIT: ok, that's it, I give up. I've pused edit so many times today on various posts that I might just go to sleep. After all- it is 2:41am over here.

Damnit, I had a bunch of nice stuff about the Khedive reinforcing the OE and the internal strife that had weakened the Empire at that time in here - Even a mention of Abdul Hamid II! Go to bed, Vympel.

Crown wrote:Marina, quite simply fuck off. Do you honestly believe the shit that you sprout?

Yes, actually, and I think it more accurate than the lunacy of Greek nationalists.

The Ottaman Empire was a despotic demon on anyone who actually lived it, i.e. both Greeks, Turks, Slavs and any other ethnicity that was involved.

No more so than any other feudal society, and after the 19th century reforms it was fast becoming a better place to live than some other spots in Europe.

Fun fact, Greeks were charged in order to go to Church!

So? In Christian Europe's feudal societies - right up until the end of the ancien regime courtesy of Napoleon - you had a mandatory tithe. Ten percent of your income went to the Church - No escaping that one. Hrmm, what's the difference here - You can avoid a tax on going to church by not going to church. Try again: The only thing which makes that worse than a mandatory tithe is that it's being imposed by foreign rulers of a foreign religion. Otherwise it would be better than one.

Do you believe that all Greeks are somehow making up their 400 years of oppresion?

You seem to believe that, and moreover that they have some kind of right to do this.

But that is neither simply here nor there. The Μέγα Ιδέα came about from the 'first king Greece' who was appointed by *gasp* the powers that be at the time. Thankfully it died when the monarchy was rejected and the Hellenic Republic was formed.

It picked up on a popular sentiment. Venizelos was hardly a monarchist and he was one of the more enthusiastic supporters of seizing Constantinople.

as confirmed by the UN refusing to even recognise the northern part of the island as a seperate state.

General confirmation by other States is all that is required, not UN confirmation. Turkey has recognized the Turkish Cypriot Republic. Once this farce is over, others will follow.

All that Denktash has achieved is in keeping his people back another 25 years.

You blame Denktash, a single man. I see other more obvious causes than focusing the weight of the stagnation of an entire country onto a single man, factors which are recognized to have effects on the development of nations.

And I find it extremely funny how you seem to be so more well informed than the Turkish Cypriots who would rather see an end to their isolation and a reunification.

Well, most people don't want to end up dead. They fought pretty hard to avoid it the first time - And you're hardly a biased source. Neither am I, though I'm not really a Turkish nationalist, either. For one of those, I'd have to invite the Pasha here.

MKSheppard wrote:
Maybe because once we won the war, we saw that the KLA was a bunch
of murderous psychopaths no better than Slobodoan Milosevic.

And since when was every single Kosovoar a member of the KLA?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

I mean, if your fleet relies on the loyalty of your subject peoples, you shouldn't count on it anyway.

Well hey, you were the one who said we 'liked' leaving


Vympel EDIT: ok, that's it, I give up. I've pused edit so many times today on various posts that I might just go to sleep. After all- it is 2:41am over here.

Damnit, I had a bunch of nice stuff about the Khedive reinforcing the OE and the internal strife that had weakened the Empire at that time in here - Even a mention of Abdul Hamid II! Go to bed, Vympel.

I'm off to bed. Tired. Nite everyone.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: And since when was every single Kosovoar a member of the KLA?

We fought the war on behalf of the poor KLA who were getting decimated
by the Serbian Police Forces...letsee, we never found any fucking mass
graves...