Posted: 2003-03-11 11:26am
What accuracy? All you do is bitch and moan about how much better the Ottaman control of various ethnic groups was then the groups governing them selves. And yet the people at the time didn't see it like you claim it was. Let's see, believe you or believe those that fought and won independance? Next you will argue that the revoloution in America was nothing more than crazy colonists 'gone native'. Face it, the people in the Ottaman Empire were oppressed and they revolted for their freedom and won it. You would make it out to be as a bunch of 'lunatics breaking out of the asylum', when in truth it was the asylum was nothing more than the deranged vission of despotic morons.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Yes, actually, and I think it more accurate than the lunacy of Greek nationalists.Crown wrote:Marina, quite simply fuck off. Do you honestly believe the shit that you sprout?
And yet today Greece is much more progressive than Turkey. Tell me what is the exchange rate for the lira this minute, I know it's hard to keep track. Lets face the truth the Ottaman Empire, like any other feudal society of that time, could not hope to survive the coming years. All of them as a model were doomed, in the end all your points lead us to the conclusion that it was the failure and collapse of the Ottamans that gave birth to the modern Balkans. This includes modern Turkey, which is as radically opposed to its Ottoman heritage as you could possibly get.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The Ottaman Empire was a despotic demon on anyone who actually lived it, i.e. both Greeks, Turks, Slavs and any other ethnicity that was involved.
No more so than any other feudal society, and after the 19th century reforms it was fast becoming a better place to live than some other spots in Europe.
A fuedal society charging a tax on its own citizens to worship the state religion, is far different than singling out a particular religion and taxing it exclusively. What you don't understand is that while Christians were taxed (by the state) Muslims were not. It was this double standard inside the Empire that led to most of the tensions between the two religions.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:So? In Christian Europe's feudal societies - right up until the end of the ancien regime courtesy of Napoleon - you had a mandatory tithe. Ten percent of your income went to the Church - No escaping that one. Hrmm, what's the difference here - You can avoid a tax on going to church by not going to church. Try again: The only thing which makes that worse than a mandatory tithe is that it's being imposed by foreign rulers of a foreign religion. Otherwise it would be better than one.Fun fact, Greeks were charged in order to go to Church!
What right? I am asking you what you believe, do you believe that this is some giant 'Hellenic conspiracy' to fool everyone out of realising (including ourselves) that hey life was actually quite good under Turkish rule, we just fought for independance for shits and giggles?The Duchess of Zeon wrote:You seem to believe that, and moreover that they have some kind of right to do this.Do you believe that all Greeks are somehow making up their 400 years of oppresion?
Venzilos is no better, 'King Constantine' was a German puppet and Venzilos was a French one. The point my dear Duchess is that the history of the Balkans (no matter on who's perspective you view it from) is a history not so much of 'lunatics and races hating each other' but rather the interference of the major powers of that time. This is the legacy of the Ottaman's.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:It picked up on a popular sentiment. Venizelos was hardly a monarchist and he was one of the more enthusiastic supporters of seizing Constantinople.But that is neither simply here nor there. The Μέγα Ιδέα came about from the 'first king Greece' who was appointed by *gasp* the powers that be at the time. Thankfully it died when the monarchy was rejected and the Hellenic Republic was formed.
It's been 25 years, keep waiting.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:General confirmation by other States is all that is required, not UN confirmation. Turkey has recognized the Turkish Cypriot Republic. Once this farce is over, others will follow.as confirmed by the UN refusing to even recognise the northern part of the island as a seperate state.
Bullshit. Denktash could have dealt with this when Clerides was the President of Cyprus. He didn't. The Cypriots then voted a hard liner in and Denktash was left with his pants down. You will also notice that it was Denktash that walked away from the negotiations;The Duchess of Zeon wrote:You blame Denktash, a single man. I see other more obvious causes than focusing the weight of the stagnation of an entire country onto a single man, factors which are recognized to have effects on the development of nations.All that Denktash has achieved is in keeping his people back another 25 years.
It is his policies that continue to keep his people down. He could have sued for peace for 25 years and he didn't. He liked being in charge of something, even if it meant death to his people.But ultimately it was the Turkish Cypriot side which refused to even talk further, and which was blamed for the failure of the peace process.
Cypriot President Tassos Papadopoulos confirmed that the talks had produced "no agreement", although he had been willing to continue talks.
Or perhaps you could find a Turkish Cypriot you know who they are? They are the ones outside on the streets of Cyprus protesting against their leader. Denktash has doomed them to more limbo.The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Well, most people don't want to end up dead. They fought pretty hard to avoid it the first time - And you're hardly a biased source. Neither am I, though I'm not really a Turkish nationalist, either. For one of those, I'd have to invite the Pasha here.And I find it extremely funny how you seem to be so more well informed than the Turkish Cypriots who would rather see an end to their isolation and a reunification.
