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Yah, infinite is cool, but easily disrupted infinite combos blow compared to very easy, very hard to disrupt combos that deal 20. That is why Pitchlong is a viable deck and channel-ball isn't.
The main thing is that most of the Eternal formats have become very mechanistic and very, very fast. Old time players who reenter the game often get their ass handed to them, regardless of the power level of their decks (Legacy goblins will beat the deck very often, dispite being made of mostly $5 cards). This is why they think that new cards are too good, but in reality the power level has decreased, but the competancy of deckbuilders has increased dramatically.
The other major problem is the growing gap between casual and tournament players. I play almost 100% tournament magic, and thus my "fun" decks tend to be fully powered, and tend to win turn 4-6 through interesting and funny interactions, such as elves/biorythym, or various tuned White Weeny builds (PT jank, odysee block WW, etc.). However, a casual player may play craw worm.dec as his "fun" deck. This was the major problem with apprentice, or MWS, if I play a casual player with my fun deck, they won't have fun, because they have no chance of winning, even though my decks are to me weak pieces of funny junk, because my definition of junk, and their definition is on an entirely diferent level.

I started back during Ice Age/4th Edition. Stopped slightly after 7th Edition, when power escalation began (general consensus among all players I knew at the time). I still have somewhere around 1500 cards, but I haven't played in three years or so.

Dark Hellion wrote:Yah, infinite is cool, but easily disrupted infinite combos blow compared to very easy, very hard to disrupt combos that deal 20. That is why Pitchlong is a viable deck and channel-ball isn't.
The main thing is that most of the Eternal formats have become very mechanistic and very, very fast. Old time players who reenter the game often get their ass handed to them, regardless of the power level of their decks (Legacy goblins will beat the deck very often, dispite being made of mostly $5 cards). This is why they think that new cards are too good, but in reality the power level has decreased, but the competancy of deckbuilders has increased dramatically.

Yeah, channel-ball is definitely obsolete, someone else just mentioned it as their "good old days" combo. Agreed on disruption immunity being key of course, it's kind of a tradeoff. "Just deal 20" is effectively infinite most of the time, but has a chance of falling short. Infinite removes that issue completely, so all other things being equal, the infinite combo is a better choice.

But the main point I was trying to make is a good combo should instantly win the game (whether infinitely or not). There's too many that do this very well to even consider playing anything else. The whole Drain Life thing doesn't do that, it adds extra cards to give you life you shouldn't need. So it was definitely a comment aimed at someone else, I'm sure to you (or I) it's a very basic concept.

Mine wasn't really aimed as a real response to you either, but building upon your idea. Many beginner players see infinite combos and spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours putting together their "infi-damage FTW" deck, and then come to even the smallest vintage event, and effetively lose 1st turn against every deck, because every deck is playing tuned to the bone combos or viscious disruption.
New players should be netdecking, then metagaming that deck. You have to have a very good intuitive grasp of the game theory behind magic to build a new archetype and have it be effective. This is where the disconnect between tourney players and casual players comes in. Powerful effects get redifined wildly. As Destrutionator shows, casual players see indistructable as a very powerful mechanic, but it is very weak, as it does not stop removal effects (swords,vindicate) and it costs a ton. Except for tinkering in DSC, and xDarksteel citadel in Affinity and welder based decks, indistructable is mostly a joke ability. Whereas dredge, which appears horrible to casual players, has spawned a legitimate Vintage Archetype (Ichorid).

Well well that's what Force of Will is for.

I thought that the most powerful decks in magic didn't use infinite turns or first turn kill at all, but just outlasted their opponents like Brian Weissman's The Deck.

brianeyci wrote:Well well that's what Force of Will is for.

I thought that the most powerful decks in magic didn't use infinite turns or first turn kill at all, but just outlasted their opponents like Brian Weissman's The Deck.

Modern magic is FAST. Your average vintage deck can kill on any turn from the first turn on, often completely ignoring the opponent's board position (topdeck the right broken card and "oops, I win"). If you can't consistently goldfish (deal 20 damage against an imaginary opponent) in under 4-5 turns, your deck isn't worth playing in ANY format.

Of course even something like The Deck still wins on the early turns. The actual 20 damage is just a formality, the opponent has been shut down and locked out of the game long before they officially die.

lPeregrine wrote:

AidanMcfay wrote:Nevinyarrl's Disk... can be played as soon as it comes out. They do not have a full turn to destroy it, and since its an ability on the card, its controller can just set it off when he wants in RESPONSE to someone destroying it even.

No it can't. The Disk comes into play tapped, and you have to tap it to activate it. So unless you have a second card for an untap effect, they'll have at least one turn to destroy it before you can blow up the world.

Yeah well there is so much stuff that can untap that... the Voltaic Key is an easy 2 mana untap target artifact. So yeah... really no chance.

Disc is very slow (it comes out turn 3 or 4 for gods sake) and then takes a full turn to blow (because key sucks dick). Plus the effect is totally symmetrical. If you lose to disc, you deserve to plain and simple. It is a great bomb, but only if backed up by a powerful deck. On its own, it is a medium power board wiper. It is woefully underpowered compared to cards like Balance, Hurkyl's recall, etc.
Disc is one of the coolest old school cards though, and I love getting to disc away my opponents shitter, but if you think disc is broken... just feel good you never saw Urza's block, or Burning_long.

does anyone know any good mana producing artifacts besides black lotus and mox's... and lotus bloom. I dont care about color, the deck I am contructing uses nothing but artifacts(No affinity). Just pure ownage Umbilicus+ Ankh of Mishra + Storm Cauldron + Platinum Angel + dingus eggs using Urza lands(tower, mine power plant) all 5 mox's and 1 black lotus.

AidanMcfay wrote:does anyone know any good mana producing artifacts besides black lotus and mox's... and lotus bloom. I dont care about color, the deck I am contructing uses nothing but artifacts(No affinity). Just pure ownage Umbilicus+ Ankh of Mishra + Storm Cauldron + Platinum Angel + dingus eggs using Urza lands(tower, mine power plant) all 5 mox's and 1 black lotus.

Sol ring, thran dynamo, mana crypt, mana vault, Grim Monolith, metal worker, Blinkmoth Urn, Gilded Lotus.

lance wrote:If your going to list crap thats overpowered I would suggest Skull clamps, cranial platings, aether vials, commender, Jiite. storm mechanic, affinity lava dart, that scry burn card. And even that stuff pales compared to Urza's block.

I endorse this post. Type II has been pretty decently balanced for a long time.

My favorite part of "MTG" was making my own cards

lPeregrine wrote:
Modern magic is FAST. Your average vintage deck can kill on any turn from the first turn on, often completely ignoring the opponent's board position (topdeck the right broken card and "oops, I win"). If you can't consistently goldfish (deal 20 damage against an imaginary opponent) in under 4-5 turns, your deck isn't worth playing in ANY format.

I bolded the part that struck me. This more than anything lays out the difference between 'old' and 'modern' players, as well as the difference between Tourney and Casual.

Except for my RedBurn deck, I really didn't have builds that killed that quick. Even my 80% deck (BlueWhite Bird/Counter) took at least 2 rounds to get the first bird out, then play a land and a bird a turn as the ones already out fly over to peck you to death. The counters and bounce cards made sure my opponent just sat there and took it, until I got out Divine Transformation or Empyrial Armor to buff my Birds. Sage/Spire Owls helped with Library Control, as did Sift. For those creature cards that couldn't be Countered, Pacifism and Confiscate, with Alabaster Potions and Gerrard's Wisdom for the ones that get thru.

60 cards. 1/3 land. The majority cost only 2 mana, only Confiscate and Alabaster Potion are more than 4 total. The Birds include Untappable, Prot: Black, and tricks like the Sage/Spire Owls special ability. As the name implies, she's a reliable deck that wins far more than she loses.

That is how I learned to build decks, strong, patient, reliable. Not something that kills you in 3 turns. When I was playing, that kind of deck was used by the jackass who got off on winning. The *real* players, to our minds, were the ones who could get inventive about it.

Maybe that's why I loved Arena over anything else, because in Arena, it was your total over time that counted, not the individual games.

lance wrote:

AidanMcfay wrote:does anyone know any good mana producing artifacts besides black lotus and mox's... and lotus bloom. I dont care about color, the deck I am contructing uses nothing but artifacts(No affinity). Just pure ownage Umbilicus+ Ankh of Mishra + Storm Cauldron + Platinum Angel + dingus eggs using Urza lands(tower, mine power plant) all 5 mox's and 1 black lotus.

Sol ring, thran dynamo, mana crypt, mana vault, Grim Monolith, metal worker, Blinkmoth Urn, Gilded Lotus.

The Mana Batteries took time to build, like their counterparts in Ice Age (Icantian Storehouse, et al), but they were a 'tap and forget' way to build up mana. The other suggestion was Lotus Vale, which was decent for the price (Land: sac two normal lands to play. Tap for 3 mana of any color)

LadyTevar wrote:

lPeregrine wrote:
Modern magic is FAST. Your average vintage deck can kill on any turn from the first turn on, often completely ignoring the opponent's board position (topdeck the right broken card and "oops, I win"). If you can't consistently goldfish (deal 20 damage against an imaginary opponent) in under 4-5 turns, your deck isn't worth playing in ANY format.

I bolded the part that struck me. This more than anything lays out the difference between 'old' and 'modern' players, as well as the difference between Tourney and Casual.

Except for my RedBurn deck, I really didn't have builds that killed that quick. Even my 80% deck (BlueWhite Bird/Counter) took at least 2 rounds to get the first bird out, then play a land and a bird a turn as the ones already out fly over to peck you to death. The counters and bounce cards made sure my opponent just sat there and took it, until I got out Divine Transformation or Empyrial Armor to buff my Birds. Sage/Spire Owls helped with Library Control, as did Sift. For those creature cards that couldn't be Countered, Pacifism and Confiscate, with Alabaster Potions and Gerrard's Wisdom for the ones that get thru.

Note the other line there, "locking down the game counts as winning". You should either be able to (depending on your deck type):

1) If you're aggro, you should be dealing lethal damage in 4-5 turns AT MOST. Your opponent should be nearly dead by the 3rd-4th turn (under 5 life, with lethal damage on the board). This should be VERY consistent, aggro lives and dies by consistency.

2) If you're combo, you should go off and win the game by the 4th-5th turn, whatever your method of killing. For vintage, this should be much faster. For other formats, there's slightly more margin of error, the ability of combo to topdeck "oops, I win" gives you more ability to get out of bad situations. But you can't rely on that, if you can't win turn 4-5 with no disruption hitting you, you won't ever beat control.

3) If you're control, you should have the game locked down within 4-5 turns. Your disruption has to come online as soon as possible (first turn being best) and start hammering the opponent, or you're going to fall too far behind and lose. The formality of killing the opponent might take a couple turns longer, but you should have such an overwhelming advantage that your opponent is just a passive observer with no real chance of winning.

If you can't do this, you have no chance of winning a serious game. No matter what the format, there are decks that CAN execute their game plan and win that fast, and they're going to kill you every time. This is just the most basic requirement for a deck to even be considered, a 4-5 turn goldfish doesn't mean you're going to win. It just means the deck might be worth playtesting to see how well it does.

That is how I learned to build decks, strong, patient, reliable. Not something that kills you in 3 turns. When I was playing, that kind of deck was used by the jackass who got off on winning. The *real* players, to our minds, were the ones who could get inventive about it.

Sorry, but playing an intentionally bad deck isn't being a "real player", it's a sign of poor judgement. A fast game can involve just as much strategy as a long slow one, it just focuses all of it into a few key plays.

Maybe that's why I loved Arena over anything else, because in Arena, it was your total over time that counted, not the individual games.

And a properly designed deck will win over time as well. I could bring a well-tuned vintage deck that will have a near-100% win percentage against your birds, just because while you're playing your first bird, I'm killing you and moving on to game two.

LadyTevar wrote:

lance wrote:

AidanMcfay wrote:does anyone know any good mana producing artifacts besides black lotus and mox's... and lotus bloom. I dont care about color, the deck I am contructing uses nothing but artifacts(No affinity). Just pure ownage Umbilicus+ Ankh of Mishra + Storm Cauldron + Platinum Angel + dingus eggs using Urza lands(tower, mine power plant) all 5 mox's and 1 black lotus.

Sol ring, thran dynamo, mana crypt, mana vault, Grim Monolith, metal worker, Blinkmoth Urn, Gilded Lotus.

The Mana Batteries took time to build, like their counterparts in Ice Age (Icantian Storehouse, et al), but they were a 'tap and forget' way to build up mana. The other suggestion was Lotus Vale, which was decent for the price (Land: sac two normal lands to play. Tap for 3 mana of any color)

Actually, Lotus Vale is a pretty bad card. You can draw it in one of two situations:

1) You don't have two other lands (opening hand is a bit short on land). Then it's a dead card, you can't pay the price. Imagine a hand with one normal land and one Vale. You're stuck on one land, a very bad situation. Now if that Vale was a normal land, you play it, have two lands, and have a lot better options. In his case, with heavy artifact mana and few lands, this is almost inevitably going to happen.

2) You have two other lands, and can play it. Now at best, you've fixed some color problems (but you shouldn't have them with a proper mana base). At worst, you've given your opponent easy card advantage by letting them blow up the equivalent of three lands with one destruction/bounce spell.

So we have a card that's at best mediocre, and at worst suicide. See why it's bad?

Gods... I remember when I was younger and started playing I got my ass handed to me first turn a couple times but it was always by some guy who was using proxies or by someone who, after you were done playing him, would tell you what it was like to be in the Pro Tour...


I think the big disconnect between old players and new players is that old players had combos (and some killer combos [nastiest one I ever fought not out of quickness but malevolence: Delusions of Grandeur + Donate]) but they could almost all settle down and prepare to slug it out with you for turns (unless they were weenie decks, and even those guys were bitches to kill) if necessary, and it often was necessary. Whereas New Players operate almost solely on insta-kill combos. I had a friend visit from Sweden last year who loves Magic and I took him to Neutral Grounds, we participated in a reject draft tournament and I could see that same difference between me, the one or two other guys who still remembered when colour coded rarity was a novel concept, and everyone else. And I think, in retrospect, it's striking that when I played my friend (who had only recently joined) he could, if he got the right cards, eliminate me in three turns, but if he ever had to play more than that he just floundered and died.

So, we're all going to play a big SDN tournament on Apprentice, right?

And I'm guessing that the format will be Legacy, judging from the posts in this thread.

lPeregrine wrote:

LadyTevar wrote:

lance wrote: Sol ring, thran dynamo, mana crypt, mana vault, Grim Monolith, metal worker, Blinkmoth Urn, Gilded Lotus.

The Mana Batteries took time to build, like their counterparts in Ice Age (Icantian Storehouse, et al), but they were a 'tap and forget' way to build up mana. The other suggestion was Lotus Vale, which was decent for the price (Land: sac two normal lands to play. Tap for 3 mana of any color)

Actually, Lotus Vale is a pretty bad card. You can draw it in one of two situations:

1) You don't have two other lands (opening hand is a bit short on land). Then it's a dead card, you can't pay the price. Imagine a hand with one normal land and one Vale. You're stuck on one land, a very bad situation. Now if that Vale was a normal land, you play it, have two lands, and have a lot better options. In his case, with heavy artifact mana and few lands, this is almost inevitably going to happen.

2) You have two other lands, and can play it. Now at best, you've fixed some color problems (but you shouldn't have them with a proper mana base). At worst, you've given your opponent easy card advantage by letting them blow up the equivalent of three lands with one destruction/bounce spell.

So we have a card that's at best mediocre, and at worst suicide. See why it's bad?

If one of the lands you sac is that super plains that fetches a plains when it dies then the loss could be mitigated. However scorched ruins is better almost always. Sacs two lands for 4 colorless mana. Also city of traitors, ancient tomb, and I think there is a land that could be sacked for 2 colorless that was in Finkels championship deck.

Xisiqomelir wrote:So, we're all going to play a big SDN tournament on Apprentice, right?

And I'm guessing that the format will be Legacy, judging from the posts in this thread.

We could just rotate through the formats.

Peregrine, your long response to me did nothing but point out my earlier statement: New Players Focus Too Much On The Fast Win, and Where's The Fun In That.


I wanna tell you a story, Jr. This was a pickup game, and one of my friends was trying out a new deck he'd built. It was White Weenies... the kind with cards that popped out tokens. Pegusus, Soldier, Reindeer... it had everything, and it was working against whatever his opponent had, keeping them even in Life.

By that time, my friend was running out of tokens, and had to start borrowing others. His opponent looked at the piles of tokens, and said "Hey, lets see how far you can go without decking". By the time they were on their last card, you couldnt' see any of my friend's creature-makers, because of all the tokens piled up on them. He'd ran the store out of the little glass tokens, and then finally attacked for some gross amount of damage from little 1/1 and 0/1 creatures pumped up to 1-3 damage by various enchantments.

THAT is kind of games that get Remembered... Not the Jackass who blows out a 2nd turn win all the time. Cause I hate to tell you: EVEN IN MAGIC, WINNING AIN'T EVERYTHING.

Speed Magic is less fufilling than Speed Chess, only it seems there is only Speed Magic anymore.

Speed Chess, while less fufilling than a three hour showdown that is part intimidation, part bluff, and part strategy, is still ultimately about strategy and thinking on your feet. Speed Magic has very little strategy; it's all about pre-determined sets of moves because specific cards are so unbalanced they force you to act that way or lose. Worse, Speed Magic just encourages throwing forward money for those specific cards.

In short, there's nothing fun or fufilling about it to someone who enjoys thoughtful games.

*giggles* Yeah... Thoughtful Game. You play GOBLINS!

I don't see why the fuss. One turn kill combos have always existed. It is just easier now because of the Internet and netdecks.

There is not only speed magic now. Play Limited (booster drafting, I've already posted what that means.) I cannot afford to keep 300 bucks every six months for constructed. Booster drafting is not about who has the most money to buy the most powerful cards. Booster drafting is not about killing someone in the first four to five turns. Booster drafting is highly strategic, drafting cards to deny your opponents and working in a limited set of cards using your skill to make a deck with the entire playing field even. Booster drafting is all about thoughtful moves, hundreds of them, and a limited amount of time to build your deck. Once all the boosters have been opened, you can draft continually with those cards making up boosters of fifteen with your friends.

Otherwise, the playing field is already uneven by virtue of, whoever has the most money, can buy the most powerful cards. This has always been the case before. I do not see why the newer cards have changed this at all. Constructed will always be like this.

The unfortunate thing?

I saw (and still see when i take the occassion to check it out) the exact same attitudes in YuGiOh TCG as is prevailent in MtG right now.

It's all about the speed, who can take the win quicker, who can deal the most damage the soonest, and no more about strategy.

These are the attitudes which destroy innovation in a TCG, they remove the element of fun for all but the most hardcore "extreme" player - these attitudes lead to netdecking, and massive amounts of cookie-cutter, with the only difference between decks being one or two "techs" placed in by the copier.