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Spyder wrote:Payback for centuries of "If you really love me you'll *"

*Golf clap* Hurrah.


Brat;

I guess it comes down to a personal judgment as to if the comment is sincere or not. I could be an empty gesture or a scripted one and in that case it is selfish and hallow. That being said, if it is sincere then it is a clumsy attempt to empathise with you and your pain.

One must take a compliment as to how it was intended. Ok, you don't but to read too far into it has its own dangers. If I was the guy and (clumsiley) tried to comfort you and got jumped on for it, I think that I would then become selfish and uncaring about your pain.

Perhaps when things are calmer, a quick explanation as to how his clumsy attempt sounded insincere or antagonistic would be appropriate though the chance to explain himself would also be in order.

Darth_Zod wrote:another thing to keep in mind is that alot of us male types tend to have a hard time actually expressing emotions in certain ways. So while we might still care, it's harder to actually come out and say exactly what we're meaning.

Yeah, me, dalton and hds covered that pretty well. under the rules we are allowed to awknoledge that women have emotions but are supposed to be distant, huggable, and non emotional. (wierd fuckin rules)

A lot of the time a patient, compassionate ear and warm arms are better than the most eloquent sympathetic comments. Sometimes we just need to talk about things to feel better. So, sometimes all you have to do to help is listen.

InnerBrat wrote:"You know it hurts me to see you upset"

Oh gee, thanks guys. Knowing that I'm hurting you makes all my pain go away.

No, it means that he's feeling sympathy pains for you, which are genuine (if subdued) feelings of woe. It means he wants to share your burden.

For instance "i feel bad watching you do all that work yourself" see?

"You're much prettier when you smile"

And obviously the only thing I was thinking about was how pretty I am.

It's probably a light-hearted method of relieving tension. That's how i'd use it anyway.

Seriously, why do so many guys seem to think emotional blackmail can make a woman feel better?

That's not their intention, the language is just phrased that way.

I think it all comes down to sincerity. If he's sincere about his concern then it isn't "emotional blackmail."

And all guys, at least that I know, compulsively try and fix problems. So when faced with a girl who is distraught we immediately think, "Must make her un-distraught." Usually this degenerates to whatever-means-necessary.

Unfortunately, I have found that when someone is truly upset there is little that can be done externally other than sitting, listening, and supporting.

Crom wrote:I think it all comes down to sincerity. If he's sincere about his concern then it isn't "emotional blackmail."

And all guys, at least that I know, compulsively try and fix problems. So when faced with a girl who is distraught we immediately think, "Must make her un-distraught." Usually this degenerates to whatever-means-necessary.

Unfortunately, I have found that when someone is truly upset there is little that can be done externally other than sitting, listening, and supporting.

Very true indeed. The part about how guys try to fix problems, too-- I've had to do that several times myself. When we fuck up and don't realize it at first, we tend to dig ourselves in deeper (unfortunately) until someone clues us into what's REALLY going on.

a good example-- once I was talking to my ex-gf on the IM, and started telling her about this other girl I know-- made some comment or something about how she might come up here to my school-- and she got all upset. Not knowing what i'd done, i was like, "what-- is something wrong??" and she was like (at first), "oh, you wouldn't understand..." and then, later on, "no. goodbye" and signed off. needless to say, i was lost... i definitely knew something was wrong, to say the least. so i inquired with my female friends, my dad, and my psychologist uncle... the end result of that was bringing her flowers and a sincere apology. i got my ass out of that hole I'd dug for myself... although I will admit it came back to haunt me later... part of the reason she and i broke up (it wasn't on my part, it was mostly hers).

And as for the last part of the post quoted above, true for anybody-- not just girls (odd as it may seem, sometimes guys just need to vent). i've found myself doing that for many girls-- I just sit with them (or in some cases, talk to them on the IM), ask careful questions about the situation, and let them talk themselves out... they feel better afterwards, and there's the possibility that I may help them in some way by offering a male perspective upon their situation. 'Course, a lot of the time, about all I can really do is just listen... but I suppose that's what they need, someone to talk to who can sympathize with them. And I'm happy to do that for them.

If he's talking about the situation at all, rather than completely avoiding you when you're upset, it means he very much cares. Some men realize at some point in their lives is that women don't necessarily want someone to go and give advice and go out and do things to help solve their problems, but rather to just be emotionally supportive (why this is, is a topic for another thread). So they try a method they are probably uncomfortable and unfamiliar with, and they will often say something with the best intentions that you end up interpreting as a grave insult.

Elheru Aran wrote:a good example-- once I was talking to my ex-gf on the IM, and started telling her about this other girl I know-- made some comment or something about how she might come up here to my school-- and she got all upset. Not knowing what i'd done, i was like, "what-- is something wrong??" and she was like (at first), "oh, you wouldn't understand..." and then, later on, "no. goodbye" and signed off. needless to say, i was lost... i definitely knew something was wrong, to say the least. so i inquired with my female friends, my dad, and my psychologist uncle... the end result of that was bringing her flowers and a sincere apology. i got my ass out of that hole I'd dug for myself... although I will admit it came back to haunt me later... part of the reason she and i broke up (it wasn't on my part, it was mostly hers).

My apologies to the female gender and anyone else, and I know we've gone this route before I think, but that's one thing sure to get me pissed off. "What's wrong?" "You should know/you wouldn't understand." And then finally "No." and stops it.

To put it shortly, I'm not a fuckin' mind reader, so if I'm asking what the problem is, that means I don't know, so if someone's gonna play that game with me, don't be surprised if I get mad and/or extremely unsympathetic.

I'm not saying all females are like that, but man it pisses me off when someone pulls that.

Back to the topic at hand, yeah, it is annoying when people read too much into something. I'm not always the best at expressing myself, and when it's "on the spot" as most of these seem to be (where you know you should probably say something, but what?) it shouldn't be too surprising when someone says something that isn't 110% sensitive to every possible interpretation. Sorry, but welcome to real life.

h0rus wrote:

InnerBrat wrote:"You know it hurts me to see you upset"

Oh gee, thanks guys. Knowing that I'm hurting you makes all my pain go away.

"You're much prettier when you smile"

And obviously the only thing I was thinking about was how pretty I am.

and others in a similar vein.

Seriously, why do so many guys seem to think emotional blackmail can make a woman feel better?

And why do women feel the need to do the same? Maybe you just date pathetic humans? Learn to read character flaws, or don't complain when people aren't forthcoming about that shit. Many guys? I guess you've been around, eh? Partly bitter response on my part. I just get tired of these internet drama queens complaining about how bad they have it. If you don't like these assholes, then ditch them. Be more picky. Christ, there's a thing called autonomy. Familiarize yourself with the concept.

Whoa. That summed up my thoughts.,

Crimson Raine

CrimsonRaine wrote:

h0rus wrote:And why do women feel the need to do the same? Maybe you just date pathetic humans? Learn to read character flaws, or don't complain when people aren't forthcoming about that shit. Many guys? I guess you've been around, eh? Partly bitter response on my part. I just get tired of these internet drama queens complaining about how bad they have it. If you don't like these assholes, then ditch them. Be more picky. Christ, there's a thing called autonomy. Familiarize yourself with the concept.

Whoa. That summed up my thoughts.,

Crimson Raine

And maybe she was just getting a bit of frustration off her chest. There's a thing called venting. Familiarize yourself with the concept.

I wonder if that "venting" excuse works for guys as well. It might be useful.

Demiurge wrote:I wonder if that "venting" excuse works for guys as well. It might be useful.

Good lord, I have guys who treat me like shit all the time because they're venting about a crappy day at work or a lousy commute or a lost ball game or something. Of course it works for guys.

I don't really mind it because I do the same when I get upset--what I HATE is when they dish their crap onto me but can't take it when I am the one who's dishing. Fuck that. Fuck it long and hard and up the ass without lube.

Zaia wrote:

Demiurge wrote:I wonder if that "venting" excuse works for guys as well. It might be useful.

Good lord, I have guys who treat me like shit all the time because they're venting about a crappy day at work or a lousy commute or a lost ball game or something. Of course it works for guys.

I don't really mind it because I do the same when I get upset--what I HATE is when they dish their crap onto me but can't take it when I am the one who's dishing. Fuck that. Fuck it long and hard and up the ass without lube.

Oh, I know it's used. I just wondered whether it was acceptable. Good to know.

One of the things at work here is the difference between how men and women think. When women bring up a problem, often they just want emotional support, somebody to listen and hold them or the equivalent. This causes a slight problem in the sense that most guys think in terms of solving problems, so they will immediately start thinking of ways to fix whatever is causing her distress by whatever means are at hand and/or necessary. It takes some time for us to learn just to listen. Try to keep this in mind when venting to a guy. If he has learned how to, he will listen, but he will also try to solve your problem for you, he usually can't help himself in this regard. At least I can't. Right, Zaia?

I'll also agree with what Knife said about the difference between those answers being sincere or scripted.


Girls, then there is also this about venting: While it's good to vent, it's not a good thing to go into a self-repeating loop where you just repeat all the same stuff five times, because after the guy listens one or two times, he goes off the "listen" ode and into problem-solving mode, and if you just keep repeating everything again while ignoring his advice on how to find a solution, he will become really pissed off. At least that's what happens to me.

Doesn't mean it always happens or with all people, though. Zaia should be able to confirm well enough that I've never gotten mad at her for bringing up the same problems, but the point here is that she has never ignored what I have to say, whereas I've also been in the situation IRL where after listening patiently and then offering advice I'm still hearing the same loop repeat in a tone that tells me I'm expected to do something about it (after I've just had all my advice ignored as if it had never been uttered) or that it's somehow partialy my fault. That makes any sympathy I might have vanish rather quickly and replaced with irritation, and then I tend to lash out. This is where the scripted part can come into play.

Edi

InnerBrat wrote:"You know it hurts me to see you upset"

Why do we say that? Maybe because it's true. It sucks when someone you care about is feeling bad. Is it so bad to say how we feel? After all, that's what the girl in question is doing. Why can't the guy respond in kind?

On a related note, it pisses me the fuck off when people get all pissy and mopey and then don't respond well to people trying to cheer them up. If you're feeling bad, that sucks, but if you're not looking to be cheered up, stow it. Either go be alone or don't bother other people with your problems.

RogueIce wrote:My apologies to the female gender and anyone else, and I know we've gone this route before I think, but that's one thing sure to get me pissed off. "What's wrong?" "You should know/you wouldn't understand." And then finally "No." and stops it.

To put it shortly, I'm not a fuckin' mind reader, so if I'm asking what the problem is, that means I don't know, so if someone's gonna play that game with me, don't be surprised if I get mad and/or extremely unsympathetic.

I'm not saying all females are like that, but man it pisses me off when someone pulls that.

Agreed, RI. The only worse thing is:


"What's wong?"

"You don't know?"

"Well, no."

"If you haven't figured it out, then I'm not telling you."


Wow, thanks. Expect a whole lot less pity from me from now on.

Demiurge wrote:

Zaia wrote:

Demiurge wrote:I wonder if that "venting" excuse works for guys as well. It might be useful.

Good lord, I have guys who treat me like shit all the time because they're venting about a crappy day at work or a lousy commute or a lost ball game or something. Of course it works for guys.

I don't really mind it because I do the same when I get upset--what I HATE is when they dish their crap onto me but can't take it when I am the one who's dishing. Fuck that. Fuck it long and hard and up the ass without lube.

Oh, I know it's used. I just wondered whether it was acceptable. Good to know.

the wonderfully proper term is commiseration

and this I agree with Zaia completely.

If you want to vent...you should always be able to take it in kind. I've had hordes of friends do this, and I never have a problem because I sure as hell do it as well.

What I dislike is the same thing here, people who will bitch at me, but the instant I go into that mode tell me to buck up and take it. I am taking it, but I feel the need to vent.

As for the mysterious female/male/cat phenomena known as "How don't you know?". I give a few words of comfort...listen, and simply just wait...most of the times they will spill the beans of why.

h0rus wrote:And why do women feel the need to do the same? Maybe you just date pathetic humans? Learn to read character flaws, or don't complain when people aren't forthcoming about that shit. Many guys? I guess you've been around, eh? Partly bitter response on my part. I just get tired of these internet drama queens complaining about how bad they have it. If you don't like these assholes, then ditch them. Be more picky. Christ, there's a thing called autonomy. Familiarize yourself with the concept.

Oh wow, so I'm a whore, a hypocrite and a drama queen for asking what I thought was an honest question? It's OK for guys to start bitching about girls behaviour but Gods forbid that I do a similar thing?

Fuck this shit.

Fuck shit hell darn!

Seriously, need to vent a bit too.

InnerBrat wrote:

h0rus wrote:And why do women feel the need to do the same? Maybe you just date pathetic humans? Learn to read character flaws, or don't complain when people aren't forthcoming about that shit. Many guys? I guess you've been around, eh? Partly bitter response on my part. I just get tired of these internet drama queens complaining about how bad they have it. If you don't like these assholes, then ditch them. Be more picky. Christ, there's a thing called autonomy. Familiarize yourself with the concept.

Oh wow, so I'm a whore, a hypocrite and a drama queen for asking what I thought was an honest question? It's OK for guys to start bitching about girls behaviour but Gods forbid that I do a similar thing?

Fuck this shit.

Pay no attention to h0rus, dear. He seems to have decided that his only purpose here is to pop up every once and a while and act like a total bastard.

As for the primary question, I think that's been covered better by others.

So how about those of us who genuinely feel guilty hearing about bad things that happen to people we know? Because that happens with me all the time.

For once I am in agreement with spanky.....

someone shoot me.


offers IB a nice bear hug. no strings or outward intentions, I just worry about/for you sometimes milady.

The Yosemite Bear wrote:For once I am in agreement with spanky.....

someone shoot me.

Fatally or just a wounding?

1984 style, in the head while I'm still in possession of most of my facilities for my own good. After all commisar, I'm agreeing with Spanky, no good can come of this....

Shove it, Bear.

I'm getting fucking tired of being treated like I'm some kind of horrible person. How do you think that makes me feel?

Actually, I was trying to be funny!

the crack was mostly self deprecating....

We really do need to get some tranqs, and see if it's possible to get you to loosen up.....